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Is a boss supposed to be understanding?
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Amarante




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jun 03 2021, 9:42 am
ora_43 wrote:
An employee who expects to be treated equally would be "entitled"? I hope I misunderstood.

Obviously people have the legal right to run a business where some employees are treated way, way better than others. As long as it's not along ethnic/gender/etc lines.

But it's not exactly good management, and someone who does that shouldn't be surprised if non-favored employees are resentful and don't put in any work beyond what's required of them.


Correct

Obviously nepotism is going to occur in small businesses but a well run company would NOT treat non-family members in a blatantly disparate manner. How in the world do you motivate people if they feel they are not be treated fairly in obvious ways.

A well run company would go out of its way NOT to make any kind of favoritism obvious to non-family members.
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jkl




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jun 03 2021, 9:43 am
Amarante wrote:
Correct

Obviously nepotism is going to occur in small businesses but a well run company would NOT treat non-family members in a blatantly disparate manner. How in the world do you motivate people if they feel they are not be treated fairly in obvious ways.

A well run company would go out of its way NOT to make any kind of favoritism obvious to non-family members.


I believe OP is talking about a heimishe, small operations and not a well established large company. Right or wrong, this is normal in small family run businesses.
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ora_43




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jun 03 2021, 9:45 am
OP - define "supposed to be..."

It's hard to say for sure without knowing the details, but it does seem like your boss was being kind of strict with you.

It's his right as the boss to be as strict as he wants. He can assign you nothing but endless busywork, or yell at you every day, or insist you stay until 5:03 pm on the dot when you have a bus at 5:02, or... etc.

It would be pretty dumb of him to do those things, though.

So if by "supposed to" you mean "is it good management to be inflexible with your employees" - no, not really. A boss who insists on following the rules to the letter when it comes to demanding things from their employees, shouldn't be surprised when the employees follow the rule to the letter and no more. Like - if you insist I sit around until 5 pm instead of leaving at 4:45 even though there's no real work to do, don't be surprised when I'm not available to stay late next time you ask.

Again, assuming that this wasn't a case where there's some relevant detail we're not hearing, like, he was irritated because he didn't know you were planning to take time off and it affected his plans somehow.
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alwayssmiling




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jun 03 2021, 9:48 am
Thank you everyone for your responses and validation and etexopening comments. Sorry I didn't follow cuz I had sheva beaches last night😉
The boss is a man who employs his siblings and me.
Expects me to be there at the drop of a hat and pick up on the others works when they dont feel like doing it
I'm not a person who takes vacations and am conscientious with my work
I can count on my hand the amount of times I've taken off the past 2 years
I let m grrr self be taken advantage of and stepped on
And I felt misheard and misunderstood these last few days when I needed some time off
Is the picture clearer? Shall I quit?
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ora_43




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jun 03 2021, 9:48 am
jkl wrote:
She mentioned equally to Family, not to other employees. All employees should be treated equally, but its acceptable for family members to get special privileges.

Acceptable how?

Legal? Sure.

"Acceptable" to the other employees? Nope. And that's not a remotely reasonable demand. Only a saint could stay motivated to work hard while watching the boss's son laze around doing half a job and getting a full salary for it. Or stay motivated to go an extra mile to help out, when the boss's daughter gets several days of paid leave for a family simcha and she gets chewed out over 20 minutes.

I guess if you're paying a high enough salary to attract saints, go for it... otherwise even people who employ their kids should consider being at least somewhat even-handed with the perks, if they want decent employees to stick around.
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Amarante




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jun 03 2021, 9:50 am
jkl wrote:
I believe OP is talking about a heimishe, small operations and not a well established large company. Right or wrong, this is normal in small family run businesses.


Whether it is normal or not doesn't make it good business practices.

If you hire non-family members and you want to have them be motivated employees, you would not blatantly treat them unfairly.

Why would someone want to do their utmost for an employer knowing that whatever they did was essentially meaningless because they would not be evaluated fairly on the most basic level.

This would be true if you brought in someone inexperienced to "manage" other employees for example. How demoralizing.

There are ways that one can "favor" family members who are working with non-family members without being blatant and causing resentment because the disparity is so obvious.

Now if someone knowing wants to take a low level position where they know they will never be given the same "benefits" and mobility and perks as someone working besides them - so be it. But I would think most normal workers would resent it and whether consciously or unconsciously not give 100%. They might also be on the lookout for a job in which their ability and work habits are fully appreciated.

ETA - My original post acknowledged that nepotism will occur in small businesses. However that doesn't mean that a well managed company that hires family members will treat the two classes in a grossly disparate manner.
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jkl




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jun 03 2021, 9:57 am
ora_43 wrote:
Acceptable how?

Legal? Sure.

"Acceptable" to the other employees? Nope. And that's not a remotely reasonable demand. Only a saint could stay motivated to work hard while watching the boss's son laze around doing half a job and getting a full salary for it. Or stay motivated to go an extra mile to help out, when the boss's daughter gets several days of paid leave for a family simcha and she gets chewed out over 20 minutes.

I guess if you're paying a high enough salary to attract saints, go for it... otherwise even people who employ their kids should consider being at least somewhat even-handed with the perks, if they want decent employees to stick around.


I wasn't referring to extremes. Obviously, an extreme form of behavior raises issues. I was referring to the usual attitude of parents to children in these small heimishe business. Employed children in these business operate on a much more personal level.

Your example is not really accurate. Did OP request several days off for the Simcha? I don't think she did. The likelihood that the boss would have granted her request is quite probable. Sounds like the boss was frustrated with her lack of early notification and disruption of set plans. Running in and out during scheduled hours can often be more disruptive than coming in a few hours later. Think about returned calls, work in progress, and collaborative work. You've started the work and disappeared in between. Comparing her unorganized scheduled days versus a request for time off doesn't put any boss into a bad light. Like others have said, being proactive and working with the boss's temperament and setup probably would have worked in the OP's favor.

And FWIW, heimishe bosses (and probably non-heimishe too) expect more professional behavior from their employees than they do of their children. After all, they are their children, birthed and raised, and often supporting as well.
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ora_43




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jun 03 2021, 9:59 am
alwayssmiling wrote:
Shall I quit?

General rule is, don't quit unless you have another job lined up. Even if you can get by without the salary, still, it's a lot easier to job search when you're already employed. And it will give you plenty of time to hold out for something better.

I wouldn't even rush straight to job searching. First I'd ask:

- is the job still worth it for you, given the salary, hours, etc? Sure, you're being treated badly compared to his siblings, but how badly are you being treated compared to what's normal - ie, what you could expect elsewhere?

- what exactly do you want, and have you asked for it? If this is a good job other than this one issue, see if you can stand up for yourself a bit more. Eg if you're asked to cover someone else's work, what would happen if you said, "I can't put in any extra hours this week, so I don't think I'll be able to get that done on top of everything else. Would you rather that I do [slacker brother]'s project in place of [current assignment]?"

Basically, if this is a good job other than the fact that you are stuck with other people's work and never take vacation, see if you can maybe reduce your workload and start taking reasonable time off.
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alwayssmiling




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jun 03 2021, 9:59 am
A quick example of what I mean. Dh wanted to go away for shavous. I asked my boss well in advance and he didn't say anything. Three days before yomtov he came to tell me that it might not be such a great idea for me to go cuz his family is going away and he needs someone here in the office to answer phones which isnt even my job
I won't tell you the rest of the story😫
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jkl




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jun 03 2021, 10:01 am
alwayssmiling wrote:
A quick example of what I mean. Dh wanted to go away for shavous. I asked my boss well in advance and he didn't say anything. Three days before yomtov he came to tell me that it might not be such a great idea for me to go cuz his family is going away and he needs someone here in the office to answer phones which isnt even my job
I won't tell you the rest of the story😫


Well, this is totally wrong. I wholeheartedly agree. Hoping you didn't agree to this!
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alwayssmiling




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jun 03 2021, 10:02 am
jkl wrote:
I wasn't referring to extremes. Obviously, an extreme form of behavior raises issues. I was referring to the usual attitude of parents to children in these small heimishe business. Employed children in these business operate on a much more personal level.

Your example is not really accurate. Did OP request several days off for the Simcha? I don't think she did. The likelihood that the boss would have granted her request is quite probable. Sounds like the boss was frustrated with her lack of early notification and disruption of set plans. Running in and out during scheduled hours can often be more disruptive than coming in a few hours later. Think about returned calls, work in progress, and collaborative work. You've started the work and disappeared in between. Comparing her unorganized scheduled days versus a request for time off doesn't put any boss into a bad light. Like others have said, being proactive and working with the boss's temperament and setup probably would have worked in the OP's favor.

And FWIW, heimishe bosses (and probably non-heimishe too) expect more professional behavior from their employees than they do of their children. After all, they are their children, birthed and raised, and often supporting as well.

Ok I hear and appreciate your comment but it's off target.
I'm the most organized person in the company.
Would never dream of coming a second late without asking him 5 days before.
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Amarante




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jun 03 2021, 10:03 am
jkl wrote:
I wasn't referring to extremes. Obviously, an extreme form of behavior raises issues. I was referring to the usual attitude of parents to children in these small heimishe business. Employed children in these business operate on a much more personal level.

Your example is not really accurate. Did OP request several days off for the Simcha? I don't think she did. The likelihood that the boss would have granted her request is quite probable. Sounds like the boss was frustrated with her lack of early notification and disruption of set plans. Running in and out during scheduled hours can often be more disruptive than coming in a few hours later. Think about returned calls, work in progress, and collaborative work. You've started the work and disappeared in between. Comparing her unorganized scheduled days versus a request for time off doesn't put any boss into a bad light. Like others have said, being proactive and working with the boss's temperament and setup probably would have worked in the OP's favor.

And FWIW, heimishe bosses (and probably non-heimishe too) expect more professional behavior from their employees than they do of their children. After all, they are their children, birthed and raised, and often supporting as well.


Just because people do something doesn't make it good management.

As I posted, if someone wants to willingly work in a company in which one knows that one is going to be treated in an unequal manner - so be it.

However, that doesn't mean that workers who experience this kind of unfair/disparate treatment won't resent it and resentment in a workforce generally means that a worker is not going to do their utmost but just what they can get away with.

That is just how the world works which is why most ambitious workers would avoid working in a place where they would be treated in a disparate manner and why there is such a thing as "good management" which exists in order to have the best possible work force.

If you substitute religion or nationality or skin color - what worker would give 100% if they knew they were treated in a disparate manner based on other factors unrelated to job performance.

ETA - Look at this thread where OP is slowly realizing that the way she is being treated isn't fair and that her loyalty to the company isn't recognized. If she works overtime without pay to get a project done, she isn't given that kind of flexibility n return for her work ethic.

I am not a mind reader but I would be surprised if OP wasn't realizing that her feelings of resentment are warranted and that if the right opportunity arose, she would leave and work for a place that treated her fairly and recognized that she was not a "shirker" or clock watcher and should be given flexibility.


Last edited by Amarante on Thu, Jun 03 2021, 10:08 am; edited 2 times in total
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alwayssmiling




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jun 03 2021, 10:05 am
jkl wrote:
Well, this is totally wrong. I wholeheartedly agree. Hoping you didn't agree to this!

Didn't have a choice.I stayed here.
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banana split




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jun 03 2021, 10:09 am
I really feel this is the type of thing that if the employee is usually very responsible and dedicated the boss will be more forgiving when there are those occasions that she or he needs time off. Obviously depends on the boss personality.
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jkl




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jun 03 2021, 10:09 am
Amarante wrote:
Just because people do something doesn't make it good management.

As I posted, if someone wants to willingly work in a company in which one knows that one is going to be treated in an unequal manner - so be it.

However, that doesn't mean that workers who experience this kind of unfair/disparate treatment won't resent it and resentment in a workforce generally means that a worker is not going to do their utmost but just what they can get away with.

That is just how the world works which is why most ambitious workers would avoid working in a place where they would be treated in a disparate manner and why there is such a thing as "good management" which exists in order to have the best possible work force.

If you substitute religion or nationality or skin color - what worker would give 100% if they knew they were treated in a disparate manner based on other factors unrelated to job performance.


I'm not disagreeing that this is bad management. I'm just pointing out that its considered acceptable behavior in heimishe small run operations. If we want to work at heimishe companies, there are trade offs. Lack of proper management and professional behavior is often part of such business structures.

Your last statement is not a great analogy. Religion, nationality and skin color are not accepted to be factors of preferred treatment. Parents extending preferred treatment to children crosses all boundaries, religions, nationalities and skin colors. Conceptually, everyone understands it, even though they grumble and dislike it.
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Amarante




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jun 03 2021, 10:15 am
jkl wrote:
I'm not disagreeing that this is bad management. I'm just pointing out that its considered acceptable behavior in heimishe small run operations. If we want to work at heimishe companies, there are trade offs. Lack of proper management and professional behavior is often part of such business structures.

Your last statement is not a great analogy. Religion, nationality and skin color are not accepted to be factors of preferred treatment. Parents extending preferred treatment to children crosses all boundaries, religions, nationalities and skin colors. Conceptually, everyone understands it, even though they grumble and dislike it.


I was just pointing out that any kind of disparate treatment whatever it is based on is going to cause resentment in the work force and the purpose of good management isn't "abstract". A well managed company is generally more profitable - it is not just an "ideal" but there is a reason for it.

The reason for discrimination makes no difference to the person who is being discriminated against. Many people do in fact hire children in their businesses and treat them in a manner that does not evoke resentment. There are ways to "favor" children without it being obvious.

There are businesses that are run as old boys' clubs and so qualified women, POC etc. don't want to work there because they realize their opportunities will be limited.

Again, just because people do something wrong or stupid doesn't mean that it won't have consequences. In the case of nepotism where it is obvious to other employees, it will inevitably foster resentment and the best employees will leave and those who stay behind will feel resentful and that resentment will probably show up in the way they do their jobs.
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jkl




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jun 03 2021, 10:21 am
Amarante wrote:
I was just pointing out that any kind of disparate treatment whatever it is based on is going to cause resentment in the work force and the purpose of good management isn't "abstract". A well managed company is generally more profitable - it is not just an "ideal" but there is a reason for it.

The reason for discrimination makes no difference to the person who is being discriminated against. Many people do in fact hire children in their businesses and treat them in a manner that does not evoke resentment. There are ways to "favor" children without it being obvious.

There are businesses that are run as old boys' clubs and so qualified women, POC etc. don't want to work there because they realize their opportunities will be limited.

Again, just because people do something wrong or stupid doesn't mean that it won't have consequences. In the case of nepotism where it is obvious to other employees, it will inevitably foster resentment and the best employees will leave and those who stay behind will feel resentful and that resentment will probably show up in the way they do their jobs.


True, not arguing with any of this. I'm just pointing again, that this is precisely a trade-off with working with heimishe companies. This boss isn't being a bad boss, it's very likely that many businesses in this community operate in the same fashion. They don't really care too much about employees leaving, because there's a host of more applicants to choose from. The majority in the community only want to work in heimishe companies, so there's always a steady supply. They will extend extra effort to someone who really makes themselves invaluable, but not to the standard workers.

It's very likely OP will find a similar setup in another job in this community, unless she concentrates on finding a job in a large-sized company or outside her area.
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ShishKabob




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jun 03 2021, 11:48 am
I don't think it's a good shidduch. I understand that you fill in when he needs you, however, he should be just as accommodating for when you need to go away as well. I couldn't work for someone like that. I can be flexible but it has to go both ways.
Hugs and hatzlocha!
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imasinger




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jun 03 2021, 1:23 pm
Thanks for coming back to explain further.

OP, it does seem like they are not treating you fairly.

I think you should look for something better.

And mazel tov!
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Lovable




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jun 03 2021, 1:42 pm
Op I left a family business for such reasons as well. It is not good to be involved in family businesses with you as an outsider. Do you realize that you are being taken advantage of?? I dont know why some people disagree, but taking off 20 minutes a day, as a loyal hardworking employee, he shouldn't be making a peep.
If he cannot appreciate you and value you as an employee, this might not be the best place for you.
B'hatzalacha!
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