Any gymnastics fans here?

amother

Foxglove

Wed, Jul 28 2021, 11:39 am

amother [ Hyssop ] wrote:

It does hinder their execution and their artistic scores, but is allowing them to throw bigger skills. I'll take a gymnast like Nastia Liukin or Komova over a Johnson or Biles anyday. I just don't like the gymnastics of larger gymnasts, even though the skills are amazing and obviously Simone is the GOAT.

Can we talk about this? How does it hinder their execution, what does that mean? It hinders their artistic scores means we think their bigger bodies are less beautiful so we take points off? If it allows them to throw bigger skills, then it would obviously be better, right?

imorethanamother

Wed, Jul 28 2021, 11:39 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Lol I don't know why I'm getting so invested in this thread...
Either way I'm gonna stop trying to educate people. Think whatever you want to think

OP, you're being a bit rude. Most of us have admitted to knowledge far beyond the "four year fans". Aside from taking gymnastics, most of us are likely far older than you. I remember when Paul Hamm came from a low ranked standing to take the gold, and it was probably the last exciting time in US male gymnastics before Korea, Japan, and China dominated the field.

Simone has definitely made the field tremendously exciting, combined with the change in the way gymnastics is scored overall. Most of us celebrate the new points system that doesn't force pre-pubescent girls to compete and chase the perfect ten by staying safely within boring routines. I like their muscles and their daring.

Simone said four years ago that there was a skill she was too terrified to do because she "didn't want to die." It was the same skill, I believe, that paralyzed Elena Mukhina - the Salto. There's definitely a fear, and a lot of gymnastics is conquering your fear. Simone has chosen a lot of difficult skills in her latest routine that can kill her if she isn't careful.

If she wants to quit because her nerves got the better of her, if she wants to quit because of Nassar, sure, go ahead. But here's the thing: I hate the media spin that this is a good, valuable thing. It's unfortunate and people are disappointed and that's it. She quit and now she wants everyone to praise her decision, and Americans probably will.

amother

Blueberry

Wed, Jul 28 2021, 11:41 am

The more I'm reading and seeing, the more I strongly believe that there's a leadership problem in the USAG.
They're trying so desperately hard to move past Karoly, past Nassar. And Simone who was a survivor, came back and is doing wonderful work so "everything's all good and fine" right? Nope
Why has Simone been trotted (either by family and coaches or by herself) as the face of gymnastics as the GOAT, etc. She's so young. The pressure of being the best definitely contributed to her not being able to be there.
Why is there no leadership stopping all that? I mean the why is clear. The leadership is desperate to prove that all the bad stuff is over, see even Simone is doing great

I'm seeing a sport that is being so "careful" about not overstepping boundaries that they're giving control and decisions to young girls, teens that are not good for them either.
There's such a thing as "too much autonomy" when not prepared for it.

Not to mention a general culture where athletes are public figures, political figures, etc. I guess that's ok for a 35 year old football or baseball player, but a 16 year old girl isn't capable of that.

amother

Hyssop

Wed, Jul 28 2021, 11:52 am

amother [ Foxglove ] wrote:

1. Harder skills mean higher start values and allow athletes to get away with less perfect execution but still do well score wise. It's disappointing when a gymnast who fell off of the beam can still medal in an Olympic game.

2. Bulky athletes have less flexibility. Compare Nastia to Shawn. Also often less technique on bars because it's harder for a bulkier athlete to fly or do seamless connections.

3. Artistry is going out the window. Throw in a triple and double wolf turn on the floor or some big skills instead of legitimate artistry. The Russians have some artistry still, but our 1 and 2 on floor are sad to watch. Simone skills are incredible but it's not a beautiful routine. I can't even watch Jade Careys routines they are so nauseating.

I very much agree with the code of points not valuing Simones skills where they should be. It's not in a spirit of the sport and not what the sport had historically been about. I still want to see her do her skills because they are incredible but it's not what this sport has been about and is.

I think it's time gymnastics has a split. Women's Artistic Gymnastics and Women's SOME OTHER WORD Gymnastics. It's losing a lot of the Artistry because of the big skills and bigger bodies.

Yes, USAG is in a bad situation. I'm also afraid some of the athletes are too Woke to realize sports is something where you will be abused (not sezually and that scandal is horrific beyond words). I don't think we should be applauding an athlete who walks away, even though she did the right thing and I support the decision. I just don't think she should get support because that's not what brings home medals. And yes, world class athletes are not regular people. Regular people deserve compassion and support, world class athletes can get it after they retire.

amother

Foxglove

Wed, Jul 28 2021, 11:56 am

amother [ Hyssop ] wrote:

Thanks for explaining that!

imorethanamother

Wed, Jul 28 2021, 12:24 pm

amother [ Hyssop ] wrote:

Read Dvora Meyer's "End of the Perfect 10".

What you're really saying is that you prefer a leaner, longer, ballerina aesthetic in gymnastics to what's more typical. Nastia was an atypical gymnast, and the exception. To get that aesthetic, you usually have to cull gymnasts from the 13-15 year old age group, and frankly, I think it's disgusting to have child athletes peak in a sport. You want the sport to have depth and longevity. Male gymnasts were peaking in their 20s, and we had little girls peaking in their lower teens. This evened the playing field with male athletes.

If you like artistic gymnastics, there's a sport for that. This sport is about strength, tricks, and skills, and I'm here for it.

ETA: That's the problem with figure skating. 14 year olds win the gold, and peak at their careers.

Last edited by imorethanamother on Wed, Jul 28 2021, 12:43 pm; edited 1 time in total

dancingqueen

Wed, Jul 28 2021, 12:32 pm

imorethanamother wrote:

It was one of the most inspirational events in sports history.

Meanwhile, Simone says she plans to compete in the individual competitions, so I don't think this is nice at all. She can't be there for her team because of mental health, but she can be there for her own personal glory?

I have the exact same thoughts. Good for her teammates who stepped it up enough to still win the silver!

ETA: if she pulled out of the all around then I take it back.

amother

Emerald

Wed, Jul 28 2021, 12:56 pm

Imamother bc I said too much of this irl.

Op I find some of your later comments a little off tune. Many of the comments here show an older and more in depth knowledge of gymnastics so you cant make claims to the opposite.
I do hear the argument that stick it out for the group is important and almost an ultimate for an Olympian. However, I see the fact that what happened to kerri strug is no longer happening - is a good sign. On the other hand I also dont see all the praise necessary. She is definitely entitled to doing what she feels she needs to. And deserves her privacy. Leave her to deal with the repercussions of her decision. Its a very hard thing to live with.
I honestly believe the media and stories that are told put a tremendous amount of pressure on the athletes that they are no longer just competing for a hard sport but have that expectation pressure too. And with the changes in media the pressure has just become really big. Having the ability to use your phone and access all social media can only be a detriment to the focus needed in the sport. Even deleting it and not looking at it only helps to a degree, knowing its there is a huge pressure .
Its become a pressure to live up to the name and expectations that has now become the challenge instead of simply focusing on the sport itself. Ledecky said this really well.

ETA - Dominique Mocenanu says it well. I’m not on twitter but this is her tweet On support of Simone and the progress made in gymnasts having a voice
https://twitter.com/Dmoceanu/s.....?s=20

And as for the argument about body shapes and artistry vs skills, yes its true that had been an argument in gymnastics skills vs artistry. However, I find the analysis of body types distasteful. Everyone is entitled to their tastes and preferences but not to placing those on to a judgement of which is a better gymnast. All body types have their stengths and weaknesses. Its really distasteful to focus on body types and say only the graceful can do well.

amother

Hyssop

Wed, Jul 28 2021, 1:02 pm

imorethanamother wrote:

Yes, they would peak as girls. That's always been the case in gymnastics until recently. Kyla Ross was great as a young teen and obviously not the same which she matured and grew. During Aly Raismans career her body was atypical and she has spoken about it. Today we have Jordan Chiles which is just not what the sport is about.

The gymnastics committees agree re the difficult and artistic aspect which is why they are undervalueing certain skills.

Our difference of opinion is a legitimate debate in gymnastics now. I guess you don't mind seeing imperfect landings and form and prefer the difficult. I want the artistry. And men's bodies aren't the same as women's.

imorethanamother

Wed, Jul 28 2021, 1:11 pm

amother [ Hyssop ] wrote:

Yes, they would peak as girls. That's always been the case in gymnastics until recently.

Our difference of opinion is a legitimate debate in gymnastics now. I guess you don't mind seeing imperfect landings and form and prefer the difficult. I want the artistry. And men's bodies aren't the same as women's.

I don't like it when we think women's real bodies - grown up bodies - are gross in a sport, and we prefer little children's. Call it girls gymnastics, not women's gymnastics. Isn't that why ultimately the Karolyi's were despised? Because they told everyone to stop eating because then they would stop looking like this little doll ballerina? That causes injuries, not to mention a lifelong eating disorder.

What we are seeing is a lot of pushback against this accepted frail aesthetic. Misty Copeland is doing it in the ballet world. Simone Biles is doing it in the gymnastic world. Serena Williams in the tennis world. I think there's plenty of room to see what different bodies can do.

amother

Cyclamen

Wed, Jul 28 2021, 1:25 pm

amother [ Hyssop ] wrote:

It hasn't always been this way. It's been this way since Olga Korbit. Before that, there were older women.

I agree about the loss of artistry in favor of big skills, but I think it's less about body type and more about the code of points. It's not a simple thing to work out- figure skating had a similar problem. You need objective scoring so each move needs a value. The code of points could decide to value artistry more. They could devalue lack of control on wolf turns, give Onodis and illusions and various creative mounts including handstands and planks higher values. Basically, they can value balance and grace if they want to, without taking away the value of the big skills. And then each gymnast can choose which type they want to be.

And I genuinely think Simone has been disillusioned ever since they devalued her vault. Because she had genuinely taken control of her career and made her own choices, and they took some of that control from her and devalued her hard work. Which in many ways left her to go the ultimate way only she could exercise control- not competing (and no, I don't think she did this consciously.)

amother

Hyssop

Wed, Jul 28 2021, 1:36 pm

imorethanamother wrote:

There is, but ultimately ballerinas are supposed to have a certain look, as are tennis players and gymnasts. That body generally helps them excel in the sport. Serena has longer arms than a woman of her height would generally have for instance. So there are one-offs here and there, but we shouldn't change the code to accomodate that, in my opinion.

amother

Blueberry

Wed, Jul 28 2021, 1:43 pm

amother [ Hyssop ] wrote:

Then the flip side is Nina Durwael. She has the long lines and artistry but not the gymnastics. She uses the Code of Points the other way on floor and beam. Throws in dance moves but barely any gymnastics.
That irritates me even more.

imorethanamother

Wed, Jul 28 2021, 2:00 pm

amother [ Hyssop ] wrote:

No, read the history of ballet. There were plenty of different body types until several (cough MEN cough) leaders in the industry decided that only one "certain look" was acceptable. It has nothing to do with excelling in a sport. There's been a lot of pushback on it, including, as I said, Misty Copeland. Here's a great article on this:

https://www.dancemagazine.com/.....item9

As for gymnastics, Simone Biles' body is atypical of the sport when she burst on the scene. Ironically, it was her build that protected her from most typical sport injuries. She's avoided most of the injuries that have waylaid her fellow gymnasts. Part of it is luck, sure, but the body building and strength building also strengthens her bones.

In general, we're much more permissive of men's bodies in sport than we are for women's. There's been a bit of an uproar about women's volleyball uniforms, which it's ABOUT TIME. Same with women. They have to wear these teeny bathing suits that ride up on their butt and men get to wear an entirely different uniform.

We should be celebrating accomplishment, strength, skill, and talent.

amother

Sapphire

Wed, Jul 28 2021, 3:42 pm

I am not from a gymnastics background, but a figure skating background, and I think I have an interesting opinion to add.

Simone Biles is to American gymnastics what Michelle Kwan was to American figure skating during the Nineties and early 2000s. Exceptional nationally and internationally, Michelle stayed on top with remarkable longevity. Like Simone has pushed her sport to remarkable heights, Michelle pushed the artistry and athleticism of her sport. Both seem to have super human mental stamina.

Why am I drawing the comparison?

Because I remember when Michelle went to the Winter Olympics in 2006, she arrived with an injury, 10 lbs over her typical competition weight, at age 26, which is ancient for a figure skater. She marched in the Opening Ceremony, went to a practice, and quickly withdrew from the competition. Michelle's legendary coach Frank Carroll once commented in an interview: "Did anyone who understood the sport really think Michelle was planning to compete in those games?" Of course not. And I don't think Simone ever planned to compete in Tokyo, either.

Why would a star athlete show up to a competition with no plan to compete? There are so many reasons! In Michelle's case, she needed to continue her story and retain the national coverage to help her with her next goal of entering politics. In Simone's case, I believe she came on a mission to promote her cause: mental health awareness,and more specifically, to become the face of prioritizing mental health in the African American AND elite athlete communities. Simone had nothing to prove with winning another title, she's already the GOAT. Simone is at these games to solidify her legacy, and after everything she's watched with the entire USA gymnastics empire toppling like a house of cards, and the BLM movement, she wants her legacy to be mental health for athletes and African Americans.

So don't feel badly for Simone, that remarkable, SMART, and mentally STRONG young lady...she has us all eating out of her hand! And I personally hope she does cement her legacy as more than an athlete - we need a great champion of mental health right now!

amother

Sapphire

Wed, Jul 28 2021, 3:45 pm

amother [ Sapphire ] wrote:

I am not from a gymnastics background, but a figure skating background, and I think I have an interesting opinion to add.

Simone Biles is to American gymnastics what Michelle Kwan was to American figure skating during the Nineties and early 2000s. Exceptional nationally and internationally, Michelle stayed on top with remarkable longevity. Like Simone has pushed her sport to remarkable heights, Michelle pushed the artistry and athleticism of her sport. Both seem to have super human mental stamina.

Why am I drawing the comparison?

Because I remember when Michelle went to the Winter Olympics in 2006, she arrived with an injury, 10 lbs over her typical competition weight, at the age of 26, which is ancient for figure skaters. She marched in the Opening Ceremony, went to a practice, and quickly withdrew from the competition. Michelle's legendary coach Frank Carroll once commented in an interview: "Did anyone who understood the sport really think Michelle was planning to compete in those games?" Of course not. And I don't think Simone ever planned to compete in Tokyo, either.

Why would a star athlete show up to a competition with no plan to compete? There are so many reasons! In Michelle's case, she needed to continue her story and retain the national coverage to help her with her next goal of entering politics. In Simone's case, I believe she came on a mission to promote her cause: mental health awareness,and more specifically, to become the face of prioritizing mental health in the African American AND elite athlete communities. Simone had nothing to prove with winning another title, she's already the GOAT. Simone is at these games to solidify her legacy, and after everything she's watched with the entire USA gymnastics empire toppling like a house of cards, and the BLM movement, she wants her legacy to be mental health for athletes and African Americans.

So don't feel badly for Simone, that remarkable, SMART, and mentally STRONG young lady...she has us all eating out of her hand! And I personally hope she does cement her legacy as more than an athlete - we need a great champion of mental health right now!

amother

Hyssop

Wed, Jul 28 2021, 3:52 pm

amother [ Sapphire ] wrote:

What you're suggesting is highly manipulative and disappointing.

amother

DarkCyan

Wed, Jul 28 2021, 3:58 pm

imorethanamother wrote:

Men ruin women in many sports.
This story is so sad.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/1......html

Mary Cain Was one of the faster runners. Until she joined nike. And a team of men decided she had to be rail thin. And she started losing.

amother

Sapphire

Wed, Jul 28 2021, 4:00 pm

amother [ Hyssop ] wrote:

What you're suggesting is highly manipulative and disappointing.

I'm sorry, I know it's a disallusion. But super star athletes like Michelle and Simone become way more than athletes, especially when they age and see their voice in sport waning...they want a legacy that transcends athletics. And they use their platform to spread a message that's important to them, and will assure their relevance. If you think about it, what else can they do of meaning after they age out of their sport? The stars aren't usually content as coaches and commentators. They usually crave more...