Any gymnastics fans here?

amother

SandyBrown

Wed, Jul 28 2021, 4:01 pm

amother [ Sapphire ] wrote:

I am not from a gymnastics background, but a figure skating background, and I think I have an interesting opinion to add.

Simone Biles is to American gymnastics what Michelle Kwan was to American figure skating during the Nineties and early 2000s. Exceptional nationally and internationally, Michelle stayed on top with remarkable longevity. Like Simone has pushed her sport to remarkable heights, Michelle pushed the artistry and athleticism of her sport. Both seem to have super human mental stamina.

Why am I drawing the comparison?

Because I remember when Michelle went to the Winter Olympics in 2006, she arrived with an injury, 10 lbs over her typical competition weight, at age 26, which is ancient for a figure skater. She marched in the Opening Ceremony, went to a practice, and quickly withdrew from the competition. Michelle's legendary coach Frank Carroll once commented in an interview: "Did anyone who understood the sport really think Michelle was planning to compete in those games?" Of course not. And I don't think Simone ever planned to compete in Tokyo, either.

Why would a star athlete show up to a competition with no plan to compete? There are so many reasons! In Michelle's case, she needed to continue her story and retain the national coverage to help her with her next goal of entering politics. In Simone's case, I believe she came on a mission to promote her cause: mental health awareness,and more specifically, to become the face of prioritizing mental health in the African American AND elite athlete communities. Simone had nothing to prove with winning another title, she's already the GOAT. Simone is at these games to solidify her legacy, and after everything she's watched with the entire USA gymnastics empire toppling like a house of cards, and the BLM movement, she wants her legacy to be mental health for athletes and African Americans.

So don't feel badly for Simone, that remarkable, SMART, and mentally STRONG young lady...she has us all eating out of her hand! And I personally hope she does cement her legacy as more than an athlete - we need a great champion of mental health right now!

That's rather cynical. And demonstrably untrue.

As recently as May, Biles performed the Yurchenko double pike, which no other woman has even attempted (at least in competition). And courted controversy because her moves, which are so much more difficult than anything anyone else even tries, are not sufficiently valued.

Hardly the overage, overweight has been you suggest that she is.

amother

Blueberry

Wed, Jul 28 2021, 4:23 pm

amother [ Sapphire ] wrote:

I'm sorry, I know it's a disallusion. But super star athletes like Michelle and Simone become way more than athletes, especially when they age and see their voice in sport waning...they want a legacy that transcends athletics. And they use their platform to spread a message that's important to them, and will assure their relevance. If you think about it, what else can they do of meaning after they age out of their sport? The stars aren't usually content as coaches and commentators. They usually crave more...

If that's true, that is very upsetting.
But gymnastics is a Team Sport. If Simone had such a goal, she should have pulled out 2 hours earlier and allowed one of the 4 alternates holed up in their hotel room a shot at the medals.
The way she did it, attempt a vault and then walk away meant that she got a medal with the team.
If I was any of the alternates and it came to light that this was Simone's plan, I would want to sue.
It would be like Tom Brady walking out of the Superbowl after the first pass. Understandable if he was hurt or scared of getting hurt. Unforgivable if his reasoning is to make people talk about him.

amother

Slategray

Wed, Jul 28 2021, 4:29 pm

Gotta crack up at how the liberal media calls her decision to quit "heroic". Look, if she's dealing with mental health issues that will impact her performance, then step aside. But let's not make her into a hero. If anything, had she competed inspite of her issues might have been heroic.

imorethanamother

Wed, Jul 28 2021, 4:36 pm

amother [ Slategray ] wrote:

THANK YOU. That's been exactly my point. It's so infuriating to see twitter feeds and news headlines about how stunning and brave and inspiring all this is.

Other gymnasts applauding her decision, like Dominque Moceanu and Shawn Johnson, etc, are conflating two separate issues. YES, you want female athletes to say no when things are being pushed in a dangerous direction. YES, you want autonomy and a voice. But that's a separate thing than quitting in the middle of competition.

imorethanamother

Wed, Jul 28 2021, 4:36 pm

amother [ DarkCyan ] wrote:

Men ruin women in many sports.
This story is so sad.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/1......html

Mary Cain Was one of the faster runners. Until she joined nike. And a team of men decided she had to be rail thin. And she started losing.

It's behind a paywall. Can you send this?

amother

Emerald

Thu, Jul 29 2021, 12:22 am

amother [ Emerald ] wrote:

I'm a gymnastic fan and here are some of my random thoughts.
Firstly, I always have a hard time with how they choose the narrative of the gymnast they choose to feature and the pressure and unfairness that puts on the gymnasts.
Here are some examples.
For several years coming up to the olympic games they ran several Road to the Olympics featuring reality style shows on the gymnasts. Some of those they chose to focus on never even made it to the Olympic trials. Think Morgan Hurd.
Advertisers choose certain athletes they are confident in to feature in their ads.. Several times ...these dont even win, others do!
Remember what happened to Jordyn Weiber - the Simone of her year ( although not close to being called to GOAT) in the end she came third in the all around qualification and so couldn't even compete for that .Ally Raisman who hadn't been featured in ads before her first Olympics only became a star after making the unexpected wins.
Before that the media made a feud between Shawn Johnoson and Nastia Lukin and pitted them against each other. In Worlds Shawn got the gold for all-around. At the Olympics, Nastia did. It wasn't fair to them to be portrayed that way. It created tension and it wasn't reality. They could have been friends competing against eachother but were set up as rivals.

Finally, considering how unpredictable gymnastics (and so much of competitive sports) is, and the many, many examples of things not going as predicted, I have a hard time with the confidence and predictions made in the media prior to the games. And espoused by some of the athletes. I literally find the lack of talk of "with Gds help" so jarring .... I don't just think its my frumminess talking..... Its literally shocking to me the absolute confidence and reliance on strength , training, grit and talent..... Especially in the face of so many examples of things not turning out as expected. I always expect to hear something that corresponds to besiyata dishmaya .... I rarely hear it. This year not at all.
When I think about it, Olympic games started off as Greek worship of the body, which is Kochi Veotzum Yadi.. (hence my guilt for enjoying it). The lack of any reference to G-ds help, to me just verifies that it as just that ... a celebration of personal physical prowess....

And yet I love to watch it.

Anonymous bc I preach this irl

Really curious about the hug. Trying to have a dialogue here. I’m sorry for the anonymous amother. I say this too much irl. But Id love to discuss what about this deserved a passive aggressive hug. Can you voice your disagreement ? Id love to hear.

I find most of the perspectives shared on this thread really interesting and enlightening. Its interesting to hear various sides explained. Please share yours.

amother

Foxglove

Thu, Jul 29 2021, 5:07 am

I like the message that mental healthbis important.

I dont like the message that if you have mental health issues you need to go away and not come back until theyre fixed.

If she had competed and cried openly and publicly, that would have been fine. If she competed and afterward started punching the wall screaming "take that Larry Nasser!" and had to be pulled away by teammates/coaches/guards, that would also be a better way of dealing with it than just quitting and going away.

greenhelm

Thu, Jul 29 2021, 8:47 am

amother [ Foxglove ] wrote:

She is not obligated to bleed in public for someone else’s entertainment. She is entitled to her dignity.

amother

DarkCyan

Thu, Jul 29 2021, 10:25 am

imorethanamother wrote:

It's behind a paywall. Can you send this?

This is her video the article is based on

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qBwtCf2X5jw

At 17, Mary Cain was already a record-breaking phenom: the fastest girl in a generation, and the youngest American track and field athlete to make a World Championships team. In 2013, she was signed by the best track team in the world, Nike’s Oregon Project, run by its star coach Alberto Salazar.

Then everything collapsed. Her fall was just as spectacular as her rise, and she shares that story for the first time in the Video Op-Ed above.

Instead of becoming a symbol of girls’ unlimited potential in sports, Cain became yet another standout young athlete who got beaten down by a win-at-all-costs culture. Girls like Cain become damaged goods and fade away. We rarely hear what happened to them. We move on.

The problem is so common it affected the only other female athlete featured in the last Nike video ad Cain appeared in, the figure skater Gracie Gold. When the ad came out in 2014, Gold, like Cain, was a prodigy considered talented enough to win a gold medal at the next Olympics. And, like Cain, Gold got caught in a system where she was compelled to become thinner and thinner. Gold developed disordered eating to the point of imagining taking her life.

Nike has come under fire in recent months for doping charges involving Salazar. He is now banned from the sport for four years, and his elite Nike team has been dismantled. In October, Nike’s chief executive resigned. (In an email, Salazar denied many of Cain’s claims, and said he had supported her health and welfare. Nike did not respond to a request for comment.)

The culture that created Salazar remains.

Kara Goucher, an Olympic distance runner who trained with the same program under Salazar until 2011, said she experienced a similar environment, with teammates weighed in front of one another.

“When you’re training in a program like this, you’re constantly reminded how lucky you are to be there, how anyone would want to be there, and it’s this weird feeling of, ‘Well, then, I can’t leave it. Who am I without it?’” Goucher said. “When someone proposes something you don’t want to do, whether it’s weight loss or drugs, you wonder, ‘Is this what it takes? Maybe it is, and I don’t want to have regrets.’ Your careers are so short. You are desperate. You want to capitalize on your career, but you’re not sure at what cost.”
She said that after being cooked meager meals by an assistant coach, she often had to eat more in the privacy of her condo room, nervous he would hear her open the wrappers of the energy bars she had there.

A big part of this problem is that women and girls are being forced to meet athletic standards that are based on how men and boys develop. If you try to make a girl fit a boy’s development timeline, her body is at risk of breaking down. That is what happened to Cain.

After months of dieting and frustration, Cain found herself choosing between training with the best team in the world, or potentially developing osteoporosis or even infertility. She lost her period for three years and broke five bones. She went from being a once-in-a-generation Olympic hopeful to having suicidal thoughts.

“America loves a good child prodigy story, and business is ready and waiting to exploit that story, especially when it comes to girls,” said Lauren Fleshman, who ran for Nike until 2012. “When you have these kinds of good girls, girls who are good at following directions to the point of excelling, you’ll find a system that’s happy to take them. And it’s rife with abuse.”
Related

We don’t typically hear from the casualties of these systems — the girls who tried to make their way in this system until their bodies broke down and they left the sport. It’s easier to focus on bright new stars, while forgetting about those who faded away. We fetishize the rising athletes, but we don’t protect them. And if they fail to pull off what we expect them to, we abandon them.

Mary Cain is 23, and her story certainly isn’t over. By speaking out, she’s making sure of that.

On Thursday, Nike released this statement:

These are deeply troubling allegations which have not been raised by Mary or her parents before. Mary was seeking to rejoin the Oregon Project and Alberto’s team as recently as April of this year and had not raised these concerns as part of that process. We take the allegations extremely seriously and will launch an immediate investigation to hear from former Oregon Project athletes. At Nike we seek to always put the athlete at the center of everything we do, and these allegations are completely inconsistent with our values.
On Friday, Mary Cain responded to Nike’s statement:

For many years, the only thing I wanted in the world was the approval of Alberto Salazar. I still loved him. Alberto was like a father to me, or even like a god.

Last spring, I told Alberto I wanted to work with him again — only him — because when we let people emotionally break us, we crave their approval more than anything.

I was the victim of an abusive system, an abusive man. I was constantly tormented by the conflict of wanting to be free from him and wanting to go back to the way things used to be, when I was his favorite.

Last month, after the doping report dropped that led to his suspension, I felt this quick and sudden release. That helped me understand that this system is not O.K. That’s why I decided to speak up now.

People should never have to fear coming forward. I hope this Nike investigation centers on the culture that created Alberto. Nike has the chance to make a change and protect its athletes going forward.

amother

Blueberry

Thu, Jul 29 2021, 10:36 am

I just want to say, Simone drama notwithstanding.
That was a very exciting All Around, for the first time in years.
Sometimes as a spectator, it's frustrating to watch any sport in which an individual or team is do far ahead that it's not even a competition.
Watching a final in which each competitor has to really try, really fight, and there's no foregone conclude makes it really exciting.

amother

Hyssop

Thu, Jul 29 2021, 10:48 am

amother [ Blueberry ] wrote:

I totally agree.

WhatFor

Thu, Jul 29 2021, 10:58 am

amother [ Foxglove ] wrote:

Did you read article up thread about what she was dealing with? She would have to risk her life or sustaining serious injury were she to compete. Should she be paralyzed for the rest of her life so the US can have a chance at another gold?

amother

Emerald

Thu, Jul 29 2021, 11:58 am

This is only one example of ridiculous pressure media places on athletes and the twisted story and perspective.

Hope I can post the picture https://I.imgur.com/ROfkGBY.jpg

Basically it sounds like theUS lost. Apparently silver is not considered a win!!
Ridiculousness

Anyway Simone is in an impossible situation. If she competes in the individual apparatus she’ll get lots of hate.
I support her decision because I personally believe the fall out of injury is too big of a stake to risk. And its noone elses decision to make. . All those olympic sports coaches who pushed their athletes too much have a lot of blood and life on their hands. Not just physical injuries…
Of course the new leaders have to find a balance in knowing how to advise their athletes. And how to build and judge emotional and mental stamina. Athletes have always been chosen with that ability factored in too. For someone who never lost since becoming a senior ( and only one day in the qualifiers) how would Simones ability to handle a lack of perfection have been assessed or trained?
It reminds me of what my therapist told me. She was fine going to a great college. She wasn’t used to always being top. But her genius brother who hardly worked for his A+ in high school struggled when meeting other A+ students at college. The skill/ part needed to deal with competition and not being top/ perfect had never been developed.

imorethanamother

Thu, Jul 29 2021, 5:36 pm

amother [ Foxglove ] wrote:

I think she can quit however way she wants. But the media narrative that this is "radical courage", aka The New Yorker, is just ridiculous and sets everyone back. It's not radical courage to quit. It may be necessary. It may be important. But it's not brave, courageous, or anything to aspire to.

imorethanamother

Thu, Jul 29 2021, 5:45 pm

amother [ DarkCyan ] wrote:

This is her video the article is based on

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qBwtCf2X5jw

Wow this is fantastic!! I wish Mary would be the change she hopes to see in the sport! SHE should totally become a coach!

amother

Obsidian

Thu, Jul 29 2021, 8:39 pm

I'm a bit behind on this, and really just watched last olympics and tuned in for this one when I remembered it was happening, and wanted to add my two cents as an outsider.
When I watched the trials and saw Simone for the first time in 5 years I was really surprised by how much she changed. She lost her youthful charm and excitement. She used to joke around with her team mates and smile a lot more and she really lost that now that shes the GOAT or whatever you want to call her. She really doesn't seem happy at all and the way she kept saying she was sorry she didnt give her best performance after the second night even though she was #1 was a bit strange to me watching for the first time. I really was not surprised she didn't make it because of all this.

amother

Foxglove

Fri, Jul 30 2021, 12:03 am

greenhelm wrote:

She is not obligated to bleed in public for someone else’s entertainment. She is entitled to her dignity.

I'd say it's part of the problem that it's considered undignified to cry or scream. And part of the "go away and don't come back until your mental issue is all gone" theme that I dislike.

If someone has a stub instead of an arm, must they publicly hide it with long sleeves to be dignified?

tigerwife

Fri, Jul 30 2021, 12:08 am

amother [ Foxglove ] wrote:

How on earth is that comparable? How you emote in public is a personal decision. Nobody is entitled to your feelings except yourself.
Body shaming is never ok in any form.

amother

Snowflake

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 2:59 pm

Mykayla won silver! I can’t believe it. Incredible.

amother

Hyssop

Mon, Aug 02 2021, 5:10 pm

She's supposedly competing on balance beam. I'd like to see her medal there. She has been inconsistent on beam. It's a difficult apparatus to hit. She doesn't have gold there yet.