Mrs. On ben Peles | Imamother

b.chadash

Tue, Jun 15 2021, 12:04 pm

sweet3 wrote:

You won’t find it in tanach, midrash, gemara, poskim and Halacha. Only in Kabalah.
It originated in Hinduism and somehow made its way to Judaism (perhaps through Islam like you mentioned) and then the later mekubalim adopted it.

I certainly don't think anyone knows this for a fact. As I said, this is a machlokes, so eilu v'eilu.
For me, the fact that it has become accepted by normative Judaism, and by great Rabbis including the Vilna Gaon, Ramchal, Ramban etc, is enough to make it a valid Jewish belief. Its hard to imagine that the Gr"a would "adopt" a belief that stemmed from foreign sources. To me, its more probable to say that this belief exists in other cultures in addition to Judaism.

As an aside, there is a fascinating scientific field (maybe pseudoscientific) called Past Life Regression, where, under hypnosis, people recall prior existence (though I heard from Rabbi Breitowitz that actual Mekubalim don't think that it's authentic because they hold that prior existences are not accessible to human memory.)

b.chadash

Tue, Jun 15 2021, 12:52 pm

sweet3 wrote:

The Gra certainty didn’t adopt it from foreign sources. But the historical facts are as I mentioned. It originated in India and made its way to early Kabalah, beginning with Ramban. The gra was a kabbalist and that’s why he believed in reincarnation.
You may wanna check out the wiki page on reincarnation.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation

I'm not disagreeing with the "historical facts" as you wrote it. You may notice that I basically said the same above, that this concept does not exist in Torah, Gemara or medrash. The Rambam did not hold of it, but the Ramban- who came shortly after the Rambam- did.

I only object to the word "adopt" because the insinuation is that this is not an authentic Jewish belief, and it was borrowed and incorporated into our belief system.

When you say the source is from Hinduism and that it "made it's way to early kabbala", the insinuation is that the Arizal, the Gra, the Ramchal etc. based their belief in this ideology which originally comes from foreign sources.

All I was saying is that it's possible that this belief existed concurrently in many religions and cultures, and just because we don't have a record of it, doesn't mean it was "taken" from somewhere else.

I personally believe that when an idea becomes accepted by great Talmidei chachamim, even if was originally controversial, it becomes authenticated. This is true about many ideas which were controversial in it's time. Somehow, the "other side" becomes forgotten, relegated to a footnote in history books.

Reincarnation is not a fundamental axiom of Judaism, so if one were to deny its authenticity, he would not be able to be called an apikorus.

But the bottom line is that this idea was solidly accepted by the great kabbalists, from every stream of Torah Judaism.

ETA: Wikipedia is hardly an authoritative source.

Last edited by b.chadash on Tue, Jun 15 2021, 2:28 pm; edited 1 time in total

iyar

Tue, Jun 15 2021, 1:34 pm

sweet3 wrote:

Could it be that an idea was taken from another culture but it’s still true?

Depends what you mean by idea. Over the millennia we've picked up things from people we live among. Some of the foods you'll find on my Yom Tov table were definitely not eaten by our ancestors in the midbar. Our religious practice and religious belief comes only from Torah sources. If our chachamim stated that they believe in the idea of gilgulim (loosely translated as reincarnation but not really the same thing) then that has to have had a Torah source. Whether that came from pshat in psukim or drush or kabbalah, it would have to have been a Torah source. There was not across the board agreement on the concept of gilgulim and your lor can give you a lot more details and insight than I can. What I can tell you is that the idea that the Arizal took ideas from foreign cultures is abhorrent. Also impossible.

imorethanamother

Tue, Jun 15 2021, 2:31 pm

b.chadash wrote:

I never thought about it that way. However, if you think a past life makes the game rigged, you can say the same about any obvious advantage or disadvantage in people. Is the game rigged because some people are smarter, more naturally inclined to spirituality, or more charismatic? And on the reverse, some people are learning disabled, physically handicapped, or prone to violence.

In fact, for many people the idea of gilgulim resonates so deeply precisely because it helps us see that things are not random. It is a way to explain senseless death in young children and the suffering of a tzaddik. It helps us to see that there is a much bigger picture than what meets the eye. So for me, that is a comforting thought.

Yes, I think that saying that the greatest leaders of our generations are only that way because they were once Moshe Rabbeinu is saying that no one ever has a chance to be great on their own. There is no true bechirah, in that case. There's no potential for being something incredible, on your own. Not everyone is the reincarnated soul of Rivka or Miriam.

That story about Moshe Rabbeinu having his portrait painted, and his characteristics are so unlike his true persona only because he worked on himself is much more inspiring to me.

Henny Machliss said that her inspiration in life was Sarah Imeinu. Is it inspiring to learn that Henny molded herself and became a Sarah Imeinu for our time? Or is it inspiring to learn that Henny Machliss was actually a reincarnation of Sarah Imeinu? To me, it's always the former.

Moshe asked Hashem, famously, why tzaddikim sometimes suffer and sometimes don't suffer. Hashem said it wasn't an answerable question, we could never understand. If it were as easy as "Well, sometimes people have to atone for sins in a previous life", wouldn't you think Hashem would have mentioned it? And do we all honestly think that Moshe Rabbeinu had some many tikkunim to atone for that he kept having to come back down to earth again and again and again?

iyar

Tue, Jun 15 2021, 2:37 pm

sweet3 wrote:

What if our calendar is based on secular sources? Is that more like food or more like gilgul?
Because the rambam says that kidush hachodesh is based on Greek astronomy.

Kiddush hachodesh is neither like food nor like gilgul. It's an actual mitzvah in the Torah. The rules for setting our calendar were given to Moshe Rabbeinu in Mitzrayim - "Hachodesh hazeh lachem..." - the mitzva of kiddush hachodesh. This was at least 500 years before the Greeks empire started to spread its influence. Our calendar is unique in that we have a lunar calendar that takes into consideration the solar year as well. (Rosh Chodesh follows the lunar cycles but the leap years when we add a 13th month ensure that Pesach is always in aviv as the Torah says it has to be.) I'm not familiar with the Rambam you're quoting- can you offer a source? It's much more likely that you're misquoting a Rambam than that he would have said that we based the first mitzvah we got from Hashem as a nation on a culture that began centuries later.

b.chadash

Tue, Jun 15 2021, 2:39 pm

sweet3 wrote:

What if our calendar is based on secular sources? Is that more like food or more like gilgul?
Because the rambam says that kidush hachodesh is based on Greek astronomy.

I'm not familiar with this Rambam, but I will share my take, whatever it's worth.

The Jewish calendar is based on the lunar and solar systems. The Greeks did not invent the systems. The systems were created by Hashem.

The Greeks may have taught how to understand the system, similar to how many scientists uncovered other scientific principles and systems in the world.

So, it's entirely possible that we learn how to understand astronomy- and thereby establish the new moon- using the tools that the Greek scientists gave us. Kiddush hachodesh itself is in the Torah. The Torah predated the Greeks.

ETA: I see I cross posted with Iyar. Well said, Iyar.
ETA: afaik, the new moon was established through Bais din and witnesses, and not through any knowledge of astronomy- Greek or otherwise.

Hashem actually demonstrated to Moshe what the new moon looks like (Rashi on Hachodesh haZEH.)

Last edited by b.chadash on Tue, Jun 15 2021, 3:06 pm; edited 3 times in total

sweet3

Tue, Jun 15 2021, 5:44 pm

וְטַעַם כָּל אֵלּוּ הַחֶשְׁבּוֹנוֹת וּמִפְּנֵי מָה מוֹסִיפִים מִנְיָן זֶה
וּמִפְּנֵי מָה גּוֹרְעִין. וְהֵיאַךְ נוֹדַע כָּל דָּבָר וְדָבָר מֵאֵלּוּ הַדְּבָרִים. וְהָרְאָיָה עַל כָּל דָּבָר וְדָבָר. הִיא חָכְמַת הַתְּקוּפוֹת וְהַגִּימַטְרִיּוֹת שֶׁחִבְּרוּ בָּהּ חַכְמֵי יָוָן סְפָרִים הַרְבֵּה וְהֵם הַנִּמְצָאִים עַכְשָׁו בְּיַד הַחֲכָמִים. אֲבָל הַסְּפָרִים שֶׁחִבְּרוּ חַכְמֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל שֶׁהָיוּ בִּימֵי הַנְּבִיאִים מִבְּנֵי יִשָּׂשכָר לֹא הִגִּיעוּ אֵלֵינוּ. וּמֵאַחַר שֶׁכָּל אֵלּוּ הַדְּבָרִים בִּרְאָיוֹת בְּרוּרוֹת הֵם שֶׁאֵין בָּהֶם דֹּפִי וְאִי אֶפְשָׁר לְאָדָם לְהַרְהֵר אַחֲרֵיהֶם, אֵין חוֹשְׁשִׁין לַמְחַבֵּר בֵּין שֶׁחִבְּרוּ אוֹתָם נְבִיאִים בֵּין שֶׁחִבְּרוּ אוֹתָם הָאֻמּוֹת. שֶׁכָּל דָּבָר שֶׁנִּתְגַּלָּה טַעֲמוֹ וְנוֹדְעָה אֲמִתָּתוֹ בִּרְאָיוֹת שֶׁאֵין בָּהֶם דֹּפִי אָנוּ סוֹמְכִין עַל זֶה הָאִישׁ שֶׁאֲמָרוֹ אוֹ שֶׁלִּמְּדוֹ עַל הָרְאָיָה שֶׁנִּתְגַּלְּתָה וְהַטַּעַם שֶׁנּוֹדַע:
And the explanation of all these calculations and what reason we add this amount and what reason we subtract and how we know each and every thing from these things and the proof for each and every thing is [all from] the wisdom of the seasons and of geometry, about which the sages of Greece composed many books. And they are now found in the hands of the sages. But the books that were composed by the Sages of Israel that were in the times of the prophets from the Children of Yissachar did not reach us. But since all of these things are with clear proofs that have no doubt and it is impossible for a person to question them, we are not concerned about the author – whether the prophets composed them or the nations composed them. As [regarding] anything the explanation of which is revealed and its truth is known from proofs that have no doubt, we relay on the man that said it or taught it with the proof that is revealed and the reason that is known.

(רמבם קידוש החודש פרק יז)

iyar

Tue, Jun 15 2021, 6:14 pm

Sweet, you originally said the rambam says that "kidush hachodesh is based on Greek astronomy". That is not what the Rambam you quoted is saying.
The Rambam writes that there were sefarim written in the days of the Nevi'im by b'nei Yissachar (scholars) that did not "reach us"- meaning they were not longer in existence in the time the Rambam lived. Since these books detailing astronomical calculations were unavailable he states that we can rely on the calculations in the books that were written by Greek scientists that were at hand. He says that in this subject (astronomical calculations) we don't have to be afraid that there is falsehood in their writings and since we no longer have the writings of our own chachamim, we can use the writings of astronomers who were not Jews. (This was probably to make a distinction between using secular literature for this type of scientific study as opposed to other non-Jewish writings that might have contained falsehood or inaccuracies.)
There is no mention (chas ve'shalom) of the fact that our mitzvah of kiddush hachodesh and the detailed astronomical calculations that are connected to it are derived from Greek astronomy. Our mitzvah comes from the word of Hashem to Moshe Rabbeinu. The Rambam is only telling us that since we don't have access to the writings of our own chachamim detailing the science behind the mitzvah, we are permitted to use calculations that come from Greek sources.

iyar

Tue, Jun 15 2021, 7:31 pm

The Rambam is careful to make sure we know that we can rely on Greek astronomical calculations because there are no errors there. It’s not a straight permission to accept secular sources in other circumstances. The Rambam was a genius and we can trust him to know which scientific sources are trustworthy. We can’t trust ourselves to know that. Also the science he’s accepting related to a concept (about the movements of our earth and other planets) that was already rooted in Torah knowledge. To think that Kabbalists took ideas from secular writings or beliefs is a stretch I’m absolutely not willing to take. I won’t agree with the premise that someone like the Arizal based concepts on ideas he picked up from non-Jews. That’s different than accepting scientific knowledge which our chachamim do with regard to hilchos nidda, kashrut, kilayim and others. You can see where relying on secular scientific studies to pasken a shayla regarding kilayim or hilchos nidda would be very different than saying that those mitzvos and the concepts attached to them originated in other cultures.

iyar

Tue, Jun 15 2021, 8:21 pm

Our contemporary poskim are just as open minded as our chachamim were hundreds of years ago. Very recently (and also two hundred years ago when they were first developed) rabbanim guided us in the use of vaccines according to what scientist said about them. The Torah tells us we have to preserve our lives and our health but we are open to listen to scientific experts and believe there can be chochma among non-Jews. Gilgul is a Kabbalistic concept. Kabbala has no connection to non-Jewish sources.