They can say No | Imamother

vicki

Thu, Jun 17 2021, 4:16 am

This is such a pet peeve of mine.
Someone close to me has this issue. She constantly excuses it with "but it's so much easier that way" and it always involves someone else doing something that only benefits her instead of her doing it herself.
Her sister lives nearby. When the sister needs something from her I get that the sister comes by to pick it up. But this person also insists the sister comes to her to drop something off that she asked to borrow. You're coming this way anyway. When she's really not. She sees her home as the center of the neighborhood so everyone must be coming by anyway. It's on everyone's way.
Once she asked someone to do her a favor and take her to the airport. The person agreed to do this generous favor. Then she added - oh, and since it's early morning, please bring me a cup of coffee when you come. Banging head

ETA - initially this person hesitatingly agreed to bring the coffee. Then this person called back and explained that the coffee is not really convenient to bring. Bravo.

southernbubby

Thu, Jun 17 2021, 7:15 am

jerusalem90 wrote:

I would say that in general the responsibility is on the person to be able to say "no". If you're young, then it might be hard to say "no", but it's a skill that is basically necessary in life so you need to learn it.

This is said after I've been living in Israel for almost all of my adult life, and that is over 10 years. If you had asked me the same question when I was a 15 year old who had only lived in America, I might have had a different answer.

This is true. And whenever I need a favor, I would rather get a "no" than have someone either resent it or expect twice as much in return.

ora_43

Thu, Jun 17 2021, 8:46 am

Two things

The cultural gap is real. There's 'askers' and 'guessers,' and all that has a lot to do with wider cultural/societal expectations, which has to do with where you grew up and socio-economic status and government and a zillion other things.

Basically, some people err in favor of 'if people need something, they should ask for it, that way we can all help each other out and life is easier' and some people err in favor of 'only ask for things if you really and truly can't do it yourself, that way we limit requests to what's truly crucial and life is easier'. And both of those are legitimate. What's important is understanding each other.

But.

Even for 'askers,' there should still be a red line of, you only ask for the favor if it's (significantly) easier for the other person to do it for you than for you to do it for yourself. Asking your friend who is at the store if she can get eggs for you - fine! Asking your friend if she can go to the store for you to get eggs, just because you can't be bothered - not fine.

Asking someone who's kid is sick in the hospital for any favor short of something immediate and life-or-death that only they can help with is just rude. Because it implies that what they're dealing with is less serious/draining/difficult than your thing. And unless their kid is in for something super routine and non-threatening, and your thing is very very serious, that's offensive.

yamz

Thu, Jun 17 2021, 12:18 pm

What I am about to say applies ONLY to typical, able-bodied individuals. Not people with physical or mental/emotional disabilities:

It’s interesting to see differences perspectives on this issue. I am firmly in the “don’t ask unless you are desperate” camp.

To me, the vast majority of people who freely ask for favors are habitual “takers” and I do not view them in a positive light at all. Why is it okay to put someone else out just to make your own life more fun/comfortable? You may think “it’s just a small favor, no big deal,” but that may not be how the other person feels.

I stay in the city all summer, and I would never dream of asking somebody with a summer home to host my family for Shabbos. I was shocked to hear that other people think nothing of doing so! Why on earth would I be entitled to vacation on someone else’s back? Hosting takes a lot of effort and expense. It’s also a huge imposition.

I also wouldn’t ask someone to watch my child for an hour so I could run an errand. I don’t care if that person is home anyway. She may hate being a stay at home mom/unemployed and asking for a favor because of this status is simply rubbing salt into the wound. Or she may simply dislike babysitting other people’s kids. Or maybe it’s her one hour of down time while her own difficulty baby finally naps. Why would I burden her for my own convenience?

I take other people’s requests seriously and have a hard time saying “no,” especially since askers often won’t take a hint. Interestingly, I find that it’s the people who ask most often who are least likely to take the hint if you try to refuse a request. They are also the ones most likely to minimize the favors they request, which I think shows a serious lack of both gratitude and consideration for others.

I know exactly ONE PERSON whom I don’t look askance at for asking for more than the very occasional favor. She is the only person I have ever met who both asks for favors somewhat frequently, but also constantly offers to do favors for others. (I’m sure a bunch of posters will claim they are the same way, but I am highly skeptical.)

I really don’t subscribe to the whole “The world runs on chesed so why not just ask” position. You should not ask because you should be considerate of others and should always seek to be a giver rather than a taker. If you really need, then absolutely, ask away and I’ll be happy to help; however you should never feel entitled to ask favors from others, just because it makes things easier/more pleasant for you, because you cannot properly account for the cost to the person doing you the favor.

BatyaEsther

Thu, Jun 17 2021, 12:25 pm

yamz wrote:

This.
Can we be friends?

BH Yom Yom

Thu, Jun 17 2021, 12:31 pm

yamz wrote:

ITA. Liking this post once was not enough!

DVOM

Thu, Jun 17 2021, 12:45 pm

SuperWify wrote:

This is a great question. I have a hard time saying no. I’m a nice person and I like to show everyone I can do everything. What happens is that I end up getting burned quite often from those who take advantage of me. It creates lots of bad feelings. I’m working on setting boundaries but it’s not easy for a person like me.

We have a family wedding soon iy”H. I just got a new wig. It’s a bit delicate and I want to save it for special occasions. My SM said it’s better not to wear to the actual wedding because of the updo and dancing but rather to save it for Sheva Brachos. My SIL saw it on me and asked to borrow it for the wedding. I nicely explained to her why I couldn’t lend it to her. She went on and on how I’m not wearing it anyway and that she’ll be careful with it so really what’s the big deal? I literally felt like a bad person for saying no. She even had my MIL intervene. My MIL said she’ll buy me a new one. I don’t want a new one- I want mine. Finally, I had DH tell them strongly to stop harassing me because I was ready to give in. People like that…. ARGH.

Good for you for sticking up for yourself!

Saying no is not something that has always been easy for me, but I'm getting better and better at it.

One thing I've gotten really good at is asking very detailed questions about the favors I'm asked and putting boundaries on my 'yeses'. Often I can (happily, comfortably, joyfully, without resentment) do part of the favor asked. One sister comes for Shabbos often. Another sister got into the habit of asking to send her kids along too. I love hosting family, but I find kids coming for a whole weekend without their parents to be overwhelming. So I offer instead to have the other sibling for Shabbos too, but only if the parents will come along (they usually say no. They don't like to travel, but love sending their kids out.). I will often team up with another neighbor when making a dinners for a woman who had a new baby so that we each only need to be responsible for part of the meal.

Another relative often comes for Shabbos and likes to stay for Sunday so that she can do errands and shopping in my town. The assumption is that I'll watch her kids for her, or that her husband will watch her kids while she shops. Problem is, her husband often goes to sleep while she's out. I've started being very clear about what I can and can't offer. ("We'd love to have you for Shabbos, but I'd like a clean and quiet house on Sunday. If your planning on staying over to do errands, please make arrangements out of the house for your kids or take them shopping with you.")

Another relative used to ask pretty often if it would be helpful to me to have her kids for Shabbos (as they play so nicely with mine, are great entertainment). I said no thanks, politely, many times before finally making a firm and blanket statement that I don't find having other people's kids over for the weekend helpful AT ALL, and if she'd like to be helpful to me, she's welcome to have my kids at her house. That stopped those 'offers' pretty well.

southernbubby

Thu, Jun 17 2021, 12:45 pm

yamz wrote:

People who are disabled may need paid help in addition to volunteers. Many of us are capable of some favors that disabled people need but not others. For example, we may find it unpleasant to clean someone's house or help with hygiene but be fine doing errands.

BatyaEsther

Thu, Jun 17 2021, 1:14 pm

I will say that there is also a difference between friends who do favors for each other on a regular bases and those who never offer and just take.

I have a friend who I text with regularly and we both pick up things from the supermarket for the other person on a regularly. We have a running tab it is so often. Another friend, our kids are besties and play together all the time. She will call me and say that she needs to make a dentist appointment for herself, can I take her DD, what is my schedule, what works for me. The same works in reverse. That is fine. Someone else in my neighborhood, when she calls, I know it is asking for a favor as she never offered anything or calls to chat. She I resent (and told her. She doesn’t ask anymore).

imaima

Thu, Jun 17 2021, 1:32 pm

Chayalle wrote:

I've seen this idea posted on these boards as well as played out in real life: People feel they can ask any favor they want. The person they are asking the favor from can always say no, right? So there's nothing wrong with asking.

Do you agree with this?

Consider the scenario I am thinking of (true scenario): I know someone who had a child in an out of the hospital with a medical situation. Their relative asked if she can come to them for Y"T with her family (two adults and two kids). She felt it was okay to ask, because if it's too much for them, they can always say no. But the person who was asked was hurt. She felt that the question, and the asked for invite, displayed insensitivity to the very difficult situation she was dealing with.

This is just one type of example. I wonder what people think of this. Are there times when asking for a favor is inappropriate, or is it always okay to ask?

I say, it is always okay to ask.

Cherry Blossom

Thu, Jun 17 2021, 1:47 pm

DVOM wrote:

Omg why do people love coming to you for shabbos? What's your secret ?

It's such a huge compliment

ora_43

Thu, Jun 17 2021, 2:03 pm

yamz wrote:

To me, the vast majority of people who freely ask for favors are habitual “takers” and I do not view them in a positive light at all. Why is it okay to put someone else out just to make your own life more fun/comfortable? You may think “it’s just a small favor, no big deal,” but that may not be how the other person feels.

But if we take this to an extreme, it's just as absurd as taking "they can always say 'no'" to an extreme.

I could take an hour off of work, get a cab, and take my daughter to a school activity myself. Or I could ask a neighbor who is driving to the same event anyway and has two empty seats if my daughter can ride with her.

My neighbor could drive 20 minutes both ways to get the one crucial ingredient she's missing. Or she could ask me to pick it up since I'm at the store anyway. It will take me literally 30 seconds.

There are so so many situations where doing it yourself means putting in 100x as much effort as it would take for someone who likes you and would want to help you to do the thing.

And personally, there have been a lot of times in my life where asking for a favor (whether I was asking, or the other person) led to an awesome, mutually beneficial arrangement. I asked a neighbor to give my dd a ride to school one week, and we ended up creating a carpool-for-babysitting arrangement that lasted a year and saved both of us from needing to cut hours at work. A coworker asked for my help with English on an assignment, and two years later we still exchange tutoring time when we both have time. If nobody speaks up about their needs, you miss these chances.

I agree that asking for an hour of free babysitting in a non-emergency situation is A Lot. I agree that asking to be hosted at someone's vacation home is non-awesome. But it's a far cry from that to, 'so don't ask for anything unless really really need it, otherwise you're a taker and probably selfish.'

Moderation in all things. Don't ask for a favor just because it's slightly easier for the other person to do it, than for you to do it yourself. And on the other hand, don't refrain from asking just because you could technically do it yourself, at great expense/effort.

southernbubby

Thu, Jun 17 2021, 9:34 pm

ora_43 wrote:

I think that small day-to-day favors are what whatsapp and facebook were invented for. People can ask for things without putting pressure on any one person to give. Inevitably in a whatsapp group of 100 people, there's someone who's able to give a ride, or who really does have some small household item to give away, or whatever else. And the other 99 people don't feel obligated to say yes to anything they aren't genuinely comfortable with.

IMO it creates new etiquette... it's more OK to ask for a favor, but less OK to ask one specific person.

I agree. I have done a number of favors that way because I was going anyway and it was not difficult to include someone else or take a package. I didn't feel obligated but was free to volunteer.

dankbar

Fri, Jun 18 2021, 1:33 am

SoBlessed wrote:

I'm in a position where I need a lot of favors. Child is in and out of the hospital, shortage of homecare nurses, I have a newborn etc etc
I just want to point out that for some people it is so so hard to ask for favors!!
I wish I can always be on the giving end!! Whenever I can I love doing favors for others and actually appreciate when people do ask me for favors etc. If I can do it it would be my greatest pleasure!

In your case, Hashem put you in a position now, to be on receiving end, rather than on giving end. That's your nisayon because it's always easier to be on giving end. In such a situation, you need to learn to take, because you can't do everything yourself, and there are people out there who really want to help. Iyh when you will be in better place, you will give it forward. You need to put your pride /dignity aside sometimes.