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Premarital intercourse required for certain womn? Source?
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jun 16 2021, 2:03 am
Remember this is the halacha section. Im not asking opinions. Im asking to find the source and to find out that we do not hold by this today.
The rambam and ramban argue about weather or not ceratin women have to have pre marital intercourse, that it would be required.
I have never heard this before. And know it to be not true.
We dont hold like this anymore, correct?
https://outorah.org/p/6168/
eta: I just added a link to the only info I found on this topic.


Last edited by shabbatiscoming on Wed, Jun 16 2021, 2:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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Goldie613




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jun 16 2021, 2:10 am
From what I read in the link you posted, it doesn't seem that they are discussing someone having to have relations prior to marriage, but rather whether or not it is forbidden because of this particular reason. Meaning, maybe it's not breaking this rule to have relations, but it's breaking other ones (wasting seed comes to mind, but maybe they have other ones in mind).

The article says = "Of course, even according to the position of the Ramban, this is not to permit premarital relations in practical application. It would only say that such a liaison is not the subject of this mitzvah. There are many additional factors that would still prohibit such a relationship in the actual."

So - still forbidden, even back then, just not for whatever reason they are discussing. Does that help?
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jun 16 2021, 2:19 am
Sorry, Im going to edit my post. I was not asking spcifically for that link. Thats just all I found about the matter, even though I am being told by someone else, something completely different.
That pre marital intercourse is a requirement, even today, for a non virgin. I said that there is no way we hold like that today. I know I am correct, but cant find any actual source for what I am saying. The other person is telling me that there are source all over the gemara. I know we dont always pasken from the gemara but I was confused by this completely.
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jun 16 2021, 2:45 am
Shabbatiscoming, I have never heard of that and the link you posted is on a different (related?) topic. Can you link anything else or give more details?
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Goldie613




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jun 16 2021, 2:56 am
This has a bit of info, though the article may be more from a reform/conservative viewpoint. Still doesn't list it as a "must". The closest bit it has to what you are asking is =

===============
Interestingly, the Torah does sanction one type of non-marital s-xual relationship: concubinage. A concubine or pilegesh is a woman who, though involved exclusively with one man, does not receive the legal benefits of marriage. In biblical times, concubines were kept in addition to a wife or wives. In recent centuries, Jewish authorities have, for the most part, dismissed the validity of concubinage. An interesting exception is the 18th-century legal authority Jacob Emden, who suggested re-instituting the practice.
===============

https://www.myjewishlearning.c.....-relations/
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Goldie613




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jun 16 2021, 3:02 am
Also, this - goes to how you would show that it isn't allowed today (and wasn't a long time ago either) -

=============
Finally, from the standpoint of Jewish law, Maimonides cites Deuteronomy 22:13 as a prohibition against pre-marital relations. (See also Leviticus 18:6.) Additionally, since single women do not immerse in the Mikveh, having pre-marital relations would involve another prohibition as discussed in Leviticus 18:19.
============

From https://www.aish.com/atr/Prema......html
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jun 16 2021, 3:52 am
Aylat wrote:
Shabbatiscoming, I have never heard of that and the link you posted is on a different (related?) topic. Can you link anything else or give more details?
Thats just it. I have not found anything.
I was having a discussion with someone, on line, who was saying that there was the Halacha when a woman is obligated to sleep with her guy before marriage. I told the person that there was no such halacha. Then the person answered back that there is a major debate between ramban and rambam about this. I tried searching the internet. The link above was the only thing I found where ramban and rambam were discussing anything to do with pre marital 2ex. The person tells me that there are certain circumstances where a woman in obligated to have pre marital 2ex. Then says that the obligation only applies to converts , divorcée, widowers and single women who aren’t virgins and that I can find sources for this all over the gemara. I have found nothing yet, and am sure this person is reading something very wrong, but wanted to be sure.
I mean, I know that in judaism there is no pre marital 2ex allowed, it is an aveira. So I dont get where this person is getting this from.
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GetReal




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jun 16 2021, 4:16 am
It seems like the onus is on this person to provide a source.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jun 16 2021, 4:22 am
GetReal wrote:
It seems like the onus is on this person to provide a source.
Of course Smile and I askd, but was not given on, so I was just asking here to see if anyone here heard of this and knew a source, thats all Smile
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GetReal




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jun 16 2021, 4:28 am
My baby was up so I looked and didn’t find anything 🤷‍♀️ unless she means a pilegesh. Maybe her boyfriend lied to get her to have s-x?
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jun 16 2021, 4:43 am
GetReal wrote:
My baby was up so I looked and didn’t find anything 🤷‍♀️ unless she means a pilegesh. Maybe her boyfriend lied to get her to have s-x?
f you look at one of my replies, I explained in detail what the person meant. And this was a discussion with a man, not a woman, who was telling me all this.
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Crookshanks




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jun 16 2021, 8:53 am
Following because now I'm curious about what proof he'll bring back to you.
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happy chick




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jun 16 2021, 9:03 am
This seems like the type of thing that you wouldn't find a source for "not doing it", but rather if it really was a halacha it would be stated.
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happy chick




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jun 16 2021, 9:08 am
I just re-read one of your posts. You have to remember that gemara is not halacha. It is the arguments that lead up to halacha. Rambam and ramban could have argued all day and night, but bottomed line is we follow the clear cut halacha.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jun 16 2021, 10:11 am
happy chick wrote:
This seems like the type of thing that you wouldn't find a source for "not doing it", but rather if it really was a halacha it would be stated.
Yes, I agree 100%.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jun 16 2021, 10:12 am
happy chick wrote:
I just re-read one of your posts. You have to remember that gemara is not halacha. It is the arguments that lead up to halacha. Rambam and ramban could have argued all day and night, but bottomed line is we follow the clear cut halacha.
Of course, I know this. I just wanted to know if anyone had a clue as to what I was referring to and a source at all. I know w dont pasken from the gemara or from rabbanim arguing Smile
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jun 16 2021, 10:15 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:
Thats just it. I have not found anything.
I was having a discussion with someone, on line, who was saying that there was the Halacha when a woman is obligated to sleep with her guy before marriage. I told the person that there was no such halacha. Then the person answered back that there is a major debate between ramban and rambam about this. I tried searching the internet. The link above was the only thing I found where ramban and rambam were discussing anything to do with pre marital 2ex. The person tells me that there are certain circumstances where a woman in obligated to have pre marital 2ex. Then says that the obligation only applies to converts , divorcée, widowers and single women who aren’t virgins and that I can find sources for this all over the gemara. I have found nothing yet, and am sure this person is reading something very wrong, but wanted to be sure.
I mean, I know that in judaism there is no pre marital 2ex allowed, it is an aveira. So I dont get where this person is getting this from.


Never heard of this. Though there are many things I have never heard of.

I agree definitely onus on this guy to bring you sources. If it's "all over the Gemara" and a "major machloket Rambam-Ramban", surely he can give you at least a few citations. If not, not worth your time or energy IMO.
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Zehava




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jun 16 2021, 10:22 am
This guy just wants to get laid
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jun 16 2021, 10:30 am
Zehava wrote:
This guy just wants to get laid
Could be, but he is so sure of himself. Its ok, if he doesnt give me a source or place in the gemara where it says this Ill be happy as I have never heard something so silly in all of my life.
And it is completely anti anything we all learn growing up.
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WindowMagic




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jun 16 2021, 10:55 am
he says it's "all over the gemara" and can't give you even 1 source?
He's manipulating you or someone to have sx with him.
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