Neighbor Banned Her Daughter From Playing in Our Home

nchr

Tue, Jun 22 2021, 3:30 pm

NotInNJMommy wrote:

I think there was a big difference, or two, or three:

First: In that situation, that parent spoke to the other parent directly.
Second: It doesn't change that Shabbos/yom tov should be a non-issue in this scenario since no one would be using electronics at all--whereas resolution of the other situation requires some permanent albeit one time decision.
Third: It's not tied to "middos" or judgment of character (the other discussion) like it is here.

Put shabbos on the side. It can be a geder.
We don't go into a home where there is a smartphone.
I don't think most people on this thread understand the communities where this exists. Besides the point, if OP is from such a community and everyone is aware she has a smartphone, I'd guess that there are other concerns. Either way, I'm sorry op and her child are hurt, but it's not so terribly shocking that something like this can happen and the answer isn't to bash people who want to instill anti smartphone values into their children, esepcially when that is the norm of the community in which they reside.

NotInNJMommy

Tue, Jun 22 2021, 3:42 pm

amother [ Saddlebrown ] wrote:

First of all ppl on here have judged those of us that restrict our children technology over and over on this thread.
It’s even been said those that don’t use technology harbor rapists. Their chinuch is weak. They are pushing their kids off derech. Etc. this from many posters.
I don’t see how that isn’t judgemental. One mother may have done something wrong and an entire segment of yoddishkeit is ridiculed and thrown under the bus.
Is that better? Less judgemental? Better midfos?
Secondly this Entire thread is based off something one 10 yr old said to another 10 yr old. We aren’t even sure if that is the real reason or If she understood.
An entire community is being vilified based on something a 10 yr old may have been told. That is amazing middos. I feel so loved by other Jews.

I was not comparing the threads, I was comparing the events that instigated the threads.

I'm not sure who thinks an entire community is being vilified. I certainly don't. Why would what someone else does and other's opinions of that bother you? You do you.

NotInNJMommy

Tue, Jun 22 2021, 3:47 pm

nchr wrote:

I think there's a difference between 2 adults talking about boundaries with each other about something objective vs. social snubbing involving avoidance and with good reason some perception of judgment of character/middos.

And the main point being: the adult with a boundary discussing it with the other adult. It's insulting to just snub someone whereas it might just be unfortunate if there's incompatibility on certain values.

amother

Broom

Tue, Jun 22 2021, 3:48 pm

nchr wrote:

A geder that is cruel and damaging is not an acceptable geder to have. It's like having a geder against lashon hara of silencing yourself by stuffing your mouth with a ham sandwich.

amother

DarkPurple

Tue, Jun 22 2021, 3:54 pm

nchr wrote:

This is intended to be a respectful post, but I recognize that it could possibly come off otherwise. If it does, I ask your forgiveness in advance for what is a limitation of verbiage, not intent.

What, in your opinion, is the difference between a smartphone, and having access to the internet, and using social media and possibly other things, through other types of devices. Clearly you are on imamother, so you have no issues with your children being exposed to someone (their mother) who uses the internet and social media. I don't understand why one type of device isn't problematic, but another, performing the identical function, is.

amother

DarkPurple

Tue, Jun 22 2021, 3:57 pm

amother [ Saddlebrown ] wrote:

Apologies for missing that, or not commenting. I agree that it is offensive to suggest that such communities harbor rapists, etc etc.

We can disagree without being nasty.

amother

Saddlebrown

Tue, Jun 22 2021, 3:57 pm

NotInNJMommy wrote:

So on this thread it’s not judgemental to say:
These ppl harbor rapists
Their chinuch is weak
Their children run to use technology incorrectly

I think there is a double standard.

- you may not judge ppl who have a smartphone
- it’s ok to judge those who limit access to technology.

It’s a double standard.
I don’t care. I do what I want.

Just pointing out that saying ppl are judgemental is ironic when the other side is also so judgemental.

wif

Tue, Jun 22 2021, 3:58 pm

amother [ Broom ] wrote:

I said that ironically, not trying to be hurtful. It is absurd to argue that the people who are against hurting people are the real baddies because this topic gets them more riled up compared to the people who are okay with hurting people.

Except those riled up people are saying truly hurtful things right here in this thread in the name of not hurting people...

Okay. I give up. I wish you all bracha and hatzlacha and other words that end in "acha" and a lot of nachas from your children. May we be zoche to mashiach really soon.

Wif out.

amother

Chocolate

Tue, Jun 22 2021, 4:05 pm

amother [ DarkPurple ] wrote:

This
I’m upset that having a smart phone became the issue because I feel that it’s just another tznius style - don’t wear black tights, don’t wear trendy clothing, no messy buns and oh- no smartphones cuz you’ll look cool.

This is not using logic. This is forgetting about the reason behind the ban. Let’s first tackle internet safety and such

NotInNJMommy

Tue, Jun 22 2021, 4:11 pm

amother [ Saddlebrown ] wrote:

I have no idea how you're extrapolating that from what I wrote. I'm commenting on the 2 situations and how I see that they differ. I'm not even calling a "side" judgmental just because they have a certain boundary. The major differences I see in the two situations have less to do with what the boundary is and more to do with how the person with the stricter boundary dealt with the issue.

I also wouldn't judge an entire community based on one person's insulting/immature/otherwise undesirable behavior. I know plenty of people who do not treat others well in the name of lots of noble things across a large spectrum of Torah observance. I also know lots of people who treat others very well and in a mentschlik way across the same large spectrum

amother

DarkPurple

Tue, Jun 22 2021, 4:12 pm

amother [ Chocolate ] wrote:

Respectfully, I'd like to hear from the poster. Perhaps there is a reason, but I don't know what it is. There are plenty of things I didn't get until someone explained; perhaps this is one as well.

amother

Saddlebrown

Tue, Jun 22 2021, 4:33 pm

NotInNJMommy wrote:

I feel bad I’m saying this on response to your post.

But in earlier post you wrote this behavior is judgmental (unlike vaccines).
I was just writing the pro technology for children ppl are also plenty judgmental as shown in this thread and based on insults they’ve thrown and judgements they’ve made

Not that you are judgmental.
But there is an overall judgement being made on this thread.

amother

Yarrow

Tue, Jun 22 2021, 6:30 pm

What this thread has brought home to me is the huge cultural divide between those who embrace technology and those who seek to limit its presence. It’s almost like trying to explain shomer negia to a non-Jew and getting this uncomprehending look. “No shaking hands because what? Are they for real? I mean I shake hands all day and don’t think of jumping into bed” etc.

Or if you prefer a non halachic analogy, explaining to a Hillel campus kid why Chassidim try to speak only Yiddish and getting this blank stare. To him it’s some quaint, slightly weird ethnic or cultural thing hung over from the past like Yiddish theatre. Kind of like the language of the hood. Why can’t they just get with the program and speak English like everyone else?

Try explaining to him that language has nuance and significance and defines who we are to ourselves. That we often think in terms or words, phrases, and expressions. That scholars can study the shifting phrases and expressions in a language and gain insight into the prevailing culture. That chassidim aren’t defaulting to Yiddish because they haven’t yet assimilated but rather are making a conscious decision to use Yiddish as their means of communication. He can’t hear it because his experiences and perceptions are so different than them that he can’t see the world through their lenses.

I see the same dynamic at play in this area. The lifestyle, experiences, social connections, etc. of those who embrace technology are so vastly different than those that are still largely using pen and paper, fax machines and voice calls, that it’s is almost impossible to mentally bridge that divide and see the world through their lens. So instead we look at their world through our lens, and it seems distorted, baffling, and incomprehensible to us.

NotInNJMommy

Tue, Jun 22 2021, 7:05 pm

amother [ Saddlebrown ] wrote:

Thanks for clarifying.

I find social snubbing and not a direct discussion clearly is because of some sort of judgmental ness.

The issue isn't the phone, or Shabbos wouldn't be an issue.

And it's clear that the mother with the more stringent views on smart phones in this particular situation isn't comfortable with her position and/or doesn't believe the mother who has the smart phone (and her child) deserve to be treated with derech eretz, much less ahavas yisroel.

sushilover

Tue, Jun 22 2021, 11:52 pm

I don't quite understand why people are insulted that their community is being bashed. No one is bashing those who choose to not expose their child to something.
The only community that is being bashed is the community that doesn't care about hurting a child's feelings, doesn't believe in communicating concerns with the parent, and thinks it's ok to share lashon hara with a ten year old. All in the name of boundaries.

If you feel that that describes your community, then yes, you are being criticized. If on the other hand, the only thing you have in common with the neighbor is that you choose to shelter your child, then you are not being bashed and there is no need to feel insulted or attacked.
You are not the victim here.

amother

Quince

Wed, Jun 23 2021, 12:02 am

Seems like theres a bunch of parallel conversations going on here.
When in fact everyone can agree that all name calling is bad. On either side of the fence.

The differences lie in the discussion of technology. Which imho is a complete separate conversation.

And the other topic which seems to be the primary point , which is the way standards are communicated. Is it respectfully or with condescension? ( And you cant deny that not approaching the adult and telling the child is disparaging. )
Does having a standard give you the right to tell your children the other family is not good enough .
I never thought “yes” to that answer was a real option. But apparently the family the Op was involved with does that -and people are defending her.
Theres the confusion.
You can defend her standards. Not her methods.

keym

Wed, Jun 23 2021, 8:28 am

sushilover wrote:

This. 100%.
I feel astonished.
Because I feel strongly that the mother was very wrong. Not for having the standards but for the lack of communicating the standards and thereby creating hurt.

As an aside, I'm also not so convinced that OWNING a smartphone that is put away when the kids are around actually creates a different environment.
I have an extremely filtered smartphone that my kids never use, with the exception of using it as a phone. They can't get into my Whatsapp. And it's a non-conversation. Their friends families with only flip phones share way more "hock" that the father's and brothers bring home from yeshiva, mikvah, schmoozing, coffee rooms, Yated. And to be honest, that feels more extreme to me.
I have teenagers in Lakewood. And the amount of stuff they brought home about Corona, Meron, Israeli elections, etc from "200% internet free families" feels way worse than the "good Shabbos" Whatsapp messages from my aunt and pictures of my nieces new tooth.

dancingqueen

Wed, Jun 23 2021, 9:00 am

amother [ Saddlebrown ] wrote:

The two positions are not pro technology for children or anti. It’s whether or not it’s justified to crush a child’s feelings based on whether her mother owns a piece of technology or not. By the way hurting and embarrassing someone violates two deoraitas potentially.

Mommyg8

Wed, Jun 23 2021, 9:07 am

nchr wrote:

If someone grows up and lives in a community where they know that they are not allowed to have a smartphone, and they will be shunned if they do, then that person understand the risks of owning the smartphone and cannot be shocked that they respond according to the way she knows they will respond.

OP seems to be shocked and hurt, which leads me to suspect (I am not sure if OP clarified) that OP is NOT part of this community. If you move near someone who has slightly different values than you and you allow your children to play together, you have to have more sensitivity to other values/cultures.

I think that's basically what many of us are saying. We're NOT saying that it's wrong to have values, and I personally think it's wonderful that many families have been able to keep technology completely out of their lives, but if you are living with other families who's values are slightly different, it's important to communicate with them in a respectful way. OP and her daughter got very hurt, and in my book, that is NOT OK. That's the point many of us are trying to make.