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Hasidic Mother of 10 Becomes Doctor
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chanchy123




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 28 2021, 1:56 pm
mochamix18 wrote:
I also wonderful about both of those points but didn’t want to “nit pick”. I’m going to go with clueless journalist…

This is the Internet- we’re SUPPOSED to nitpick.
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Amarante




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 28 2021, 2:13 pm
chanchy123 wrote:
I have to agree with Mama Bear and the others here. This woman is very much deserving of all accolades, it’s even worth a magazine piece (that’s the term we use in a Hebrew not sure if it translates into English in this context). She’s inspiring and has a very interesting life story. It would be a great story if they presented it accurately.
However, the way the story is written they sort of try to make you believe that she is representative of her community, while she is not.
Because we understand the nuances, we know the mitigating circumstances here, in a way it makes for a better story to us, but to the casual reader it lacks a lot of context.
Heck I’m not even part of that community and I do know several frum doctors with many children. It is pretty common in my community for women to go to college including medical school while you’re raising small kids - still ten (or even if you only count the younger biological children) including a set of twins and a baby is very impressive - it just doesn’t fit in the neat little package the NYT was selling.


This is fascinating in terms of the bolded because I think it is written as something that is outside of the norms and mores of the community. It dealt with the very real obstacles and dispensations that a secular woman - even one with 10 children - would not face.
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chanchy123




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 28 2021, 2:37 pm
Amarante wrote:
This is fascinating in terms of the bolded because I think it is written as something that is outside of the norms and mores of the community. It dealt with the very real obstacles and dispensations that a secular woman - even one with 10 children - would not face.

I agree - I was missing a couple of sentences explaining how she was able to attain this feat because she had XYZ advantages that the average woman in her community does not have.
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bruriyah




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 28 2021, 3:02 pm
the question remains, would a typical chassidish girl, non-BT, get the same green light to go to medical school if she asked her chassidishe Rebbe?
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InnerMe




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 28 2021, 4:09 pm
bruriyah wrote:
the question remains, would a typical chassidish girl, non-BT, get the same green light to go to medical school if she asked her chassidishe Rebbe?


It's very possible she would. (There's nothing inherently wrong with medical school vs getting any other degree.) But I think knowing the hardships that this route entails I don't think there are too many women that even want to go that route, or think it's a healthy route for themselves or their children.

Basically, I think the reason there's such a dearth is because women don't see it as a viable option for themselves if they want to raise a large (or even not large) family in an emotionally healthy way. Not because the rabbis don't let.
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bruriyah




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 28 2021, 4:19 pm
InnerMe wrote:
It's very possible she would. (There's nothing inherently wrong with medical school vs getting any other degree.) But I think knowing the hardships that this route entails I don't think there are too many women that even want to go that route, or think it's a healthy route for themselves or their children.

Basically, I think the reason there's such a dearth is because women don't see it as a viable option for themselves if they want to raise a large (or even not large) family in an emotionally healthy way. Not because the rabbis don't let.


I disagree. It's a multifaceted equation with a ONE significant factor being that women in these communities have a pre-prescribed path set up for them with little room for exploration.
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InnerMe




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 28 2021, 4:25 pm
bruriyah wrote:
I disagree. It's a multifaceted equation with a ONE significant factor being that women in these communities have a pre-prescribed path set up for them with little room for exploration.


True, but now you're saying something else.

I don't think the biggest thing standing in her way is a rebbe's approval. Which is what you asked. If someone is passionate about medicine and really wants to go for it I could see her easily getting "approval" and a bracha from a rebbe.
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Mama Bear




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 28 2021, 4:39 pm
chestnut wrote:
They're Satmar now? Didn't they live in CH?


I am taking back everything I said and deleting it, bc there's a very slight chance that this is a case of mistaken identity. This family's story is 100% identical to someone I know, but when I asked around I was told that they don't have 10 children, and that person did not recognize Mrs. Friedman. It makes very little sense that 2 families can have the exact same story, but just for the small chance that I am mistaken I deleted everything I wrote. If someone quoted me, I apologize for being unable to edit it, please ignore. The last thing I want to do is hurt people - esp if it's the wrong people!!!


Last edited by Mama Bear on Mon, Jun 28 2021, 5:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mama Bear




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 28 2021, 4:43 pm
InnerMe wrote:
True, but now you're saying something else.

I don't think the biggest thing standing in her way is a rebbe's approval. Which is what you asked. If someone is passionate about medicine and really wants to go for it I could see her easily getting "approval" and a bracha from a rebbe.



I am taking back everything I said and deleting it, bc there's a very slight chance that this is a case of mistaken identity. This family's story is 100% identical to someone I know, but when I asked around I was told that they don't have 10 children, and that person did not recognize Mrs. Friedman. It makes very little sense that 2 families can have the exact same story, but just for the small chance that I am mistaken I deleted everything I wrote. If someone quoted me, I apologize for being unable to edit it, please ignore. The last thing I want to do is hurt people - esp if it's the wrong people!!!


Last edited by Mama Bear on Mon, Jun 28 2021, 5:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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chestnut




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 28 2021, 4:44 pm
Mama Bear wrote:
They lived in Crown Heights probably 12-15 years ago. His incredible daughter gave a talk in our bungalow colony. She attended the all Yiddish speaking school in CH - I forget if it's Bais CM or bnos M? so she had a headstart in Yiddish when they moved to Monsey later (after wandering to Hick Town Upstate and then Tucson), although she had many amusing stories of her mangling of the chaseedish accent vs. the Crown Heights accent, and her very rigid 'bloiz' yiddish vs the Yinglish that's spoken in Monsey. She's such a darling, I'd love to be in touch with her and even write up her story for Mishpacha or something. Sigh.

If you read the other magazine piece, they became kind of Toldos Aharon & became close to R' Aron Kohn z"l. That's pretty much Satmar-adjacent.

So, from CH to upstate to Tucson to Monsey, from Chabad to Toldos Aaron/Satmar?
Phew, that's some journey!
There's a Satmar community in Tucson?
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InnerMe




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 28 2021, 4:50 pm
Mama Bear wrote:
I speculate that perhaps one reason why R' Aron Kohn gave his approval is probably bc he knew her background, it's not as if going to medical school would open her eyes and make her want to leave Yiddishkeit or anything. As a BT she's already seen the other side and is firmly planted in this side.

He also probably knew about the restlessness and wander-lust of the family and that this is something she really wants to do.

It's a different situation when a regular, run-of-the-mill Satmar-raised woman wants to become a doctor. It's a bit of a red flag; it's a normal thing for such a person to want, so there may be underlying reasons why she's so unhappy with her life as it is.... and such a woman would probably settle for nursing or PA etc.

Anyway, I shouldn't be speaking for R' Kohn; obviously, I wasn't there when he gave the go-ahead.

It's still pretty huge that she even asked. Given her background she could just go ahead and decide to do whatever she pleases with her life without asking daas torah.


I disagree. What specifically about medical school would make one want to leave Yiddishkeit? Over going for nursing or PA.

I think that majority of chassiddish women don't want that kind of intense commitment and and possibly they don't think it's possible for them.

But say you, Mama bear decided you have a fierce passion to become an MD, could you not see yourself getting a bracha/approval from a rebbe?

The rebbe might wanna discuss how you're gonna manage, what's gonna be with your kids, what's your game plan, is this something you really are committed to... but hashkafically... do you think you'd almost certainly get a no based on hashkafic/ halachic reasons?
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chanchy123




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 28 2021, 5:03 pm
Mama Bear wrote:
They lived in Crown Heights probably 12-15 years ago. His incredible daughter gave a talk in our bungalow colony. She attended the all Yiddish speaking school in CH - I forget if it's Bais CM or bnos M? so she had a headstart in Yiddish when they moved to Monsey later (after wandering to Hick Town Upstate and then Tucson), although she had many amusing stories of her mangling of the chaseedish accent vs. the Crown Heights accent, and her very rigid 'bloiz' yiddish vs the Yinglish that's spoken in Monsey. She's such a darling, I'd love to be in touch with her and even write up her story for Mishpacha or something. Sigh.

If you read the other magazine piece, they became kind of Toldos Aharon & became close to R' Aron Kohn z"l. That's pretty much Satmar-adjacent.

So to me the story of an army brat who dropped out of med school became frum, married a widower with two young children, traveled through CH, upstate and Tucson only to become chassidim of Toldot Aharon, lived there full chassidish life, have bothe to five biological children - decided to go back to medical school with seven kids at home and the social and halachic restrictions successfully made it through medical school while delivering twins and then when they were still toddlers have birth to another baby and still finishing first in her class - is just incredible. So much more so in this context, than in the NYT piece.
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Mama Bear




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 28 2021, 5:06 pm
chestnut wrote:
So, from CH to upstate to Tucson to Monsey, from Chabad to Toldos Aaron/Satmar?
Phew, that's some journey!
There's a Satmar community in Tucson?


I may be mixing them up with a different Friedman family who had mamish an identical journey, so for now let's put aside what I wrote. Instead let me explain what the satmar 'kehillah' of tucson is.

There are older people who dont want to go to MIami for the winter bc of the pritzus there and opt to go to Arizona. My zaideh a"h had terrible asthma and went to arizona every winter. There was no framework there, until R' Zcharya Brauner a"h set up a little enclave so that the winter vacationers would have a shul and kosher food etc. So "Brauner's Yishuv" in Tucson attracts snowbirds every winter. So there's no real community there, it's a transient community, but that's what the Friedmans found there when they lived there and were very impressed and (the father) decided to take on Satmar minhagim, then moved the fam to monsey.


Last edited by Mama Bear on Mon, Jun 28 2021, 5:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mama Bear




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 28 2021, 5:08 pm
chanchy123 wrote:
So to me the story of an army brat who dropped out of med school became frum, married a widower with two young children, traveled through CH, upstate and Tucson only to become chassidim of Toldot Aharon, lived there full chassidish life, have bothe to five biological children - decided to go back to medical school with seven kids at home and the social and halachic restrictions successfully made it through medical school while delivering twins and then when they were still toddlers have birth to another baby and still finishing first in her class - is just incredible. So much more so in this context, than in the NYT piece.




I am taking back everything I said and deleting it, bc there's a very slight chance that this is a case of mistaken identity. This family's story is 100% identical to someone I know, but when I asked around I was told that they don't have 10 children, and that person did not recognize Mrs. Friedman. It makes very little sense that 2 families can have the exact same story, but just for the small chance that I am mistaken I deleted everything I wrote. If someone quoted me, I apologize for being unable to edit it, please ignore. The last thing I want to do is hurt people - esp if it's the wrong people!!!


Last edited by Mama Bear on Mon, Jun 28 2021, 5:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mama Bear




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 28 2021, 5:28 pm
InnerMe wrote:
I disagree. What specifically about medical school would make one want to leave Yiddishkeit? Over going for nursing or PA.

I think that majority of chassiddish women don't want that kind of intense commitment and and possibly they don't think it's possible for them.

But say you, Mama bear decided you have a fierce passion to become an MD, could you not see yourself getting a bracha/approval from a rebbe?

The rebbe might wanna discuss how you're gonna manage, what's gonna be with your kids, what's your game plan, is this something you really are committed to... but hashkafically... do you think you'd almost certainly get a no based on hashkafic/ halachic reasons?


I guess I can't relate bc my husband & I don't really have a close relationship to a Rebbe.
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First Lady




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 28 2021, 6:26 pm
This woman seems amazing!

I did hate this part of the article
She also obtained rabbinical approval to drive the family car herself, but her husband continued to drive her out of their immediate neighborhood, then hop out and walk home, to avoid upsetting her Orthodox neighbors.

Really now?! Way to make us all seem like aliens. Not only do all Orthodox women in Monsey drive, but there are many Chassidish women driving as well. I hate fake sensationalism.
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Amarante




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 28 2021, 6:34 pm
First Lady wrote:
This woman seems amazing!

I did hate this part of the article
She also obtained rabbinical approval to drive the family car herself, but her husband continued to drive her out of their immediate neighborhood, then hop out and walk home, to avoid upsetting her Orthodox neighbors.

Really now?! Way to make us all seem like aliens. Not only do all Orthodox women in Monsey drive, but there are many Chassidish women driving as well. I hate fake sensationalism.


But this accurately reported what she did.

Are you attacking the reporter for accurately describing something. The reporter would not know about how she handled driving unless the woman told her.

Obviously in her community the family felt it would be difficult if she was seen as driving.

Again, I don’t understand these kinds of comments. There have been numerous threads in which it is acknowledged that many Chassidic women don’t drive because it wouid go against community mores.
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First Lady




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 28 2021, 6:39 pm
Amarante wrote:
But this accurately reported what she did.

Are you attacking the reporter for accurately describing something. The reporter would not know about how she handled driving unless the woman told her.

Obviously in her community the family felt it would be difficult if she was seen as driving.

Again, I don’t understand these kinds of comments. There have been numerous threads in which it is acknowledged that many Chassidic women don’t drive because it wouid go against community mores.


No, it says upsetting her Orthodox neighbors.
And even if it would have said Chassidish women, that's not true either. Chassidish women in Monsey that don't drive are used to other women driving.
Plus I know some of her neighbors. They either drive, or have zero issue with other women driving.
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InnerMe




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 28 2021, 6:40 pm
Amarante wrote:
But this accurately reported what she did.

Are you attacking the reporter for accurately describing something. The reporter would not know about how she handled driving unless the woman told her.

Obviously in her community the family felt it would be difficult if she was seen as driving.

Again, I don’t understand these kinds of comments. There have been numerous threads in which it is acknowledged that many Chassidic women don’t drive because it wouid go against community mores.


I think you should give the reporter a little more credit. A reporter that writes about something without understanding cultural norms does their research. And usually these pieces get written by reporters who have some level of exposure with the community they're writing about. This particular reporter seems to have some agenda because throughout the article he inserts such type of rhetoric.

Yes, chassiddish women have trouble driving because the schools enforce the no driving.
No, chassidish women would not upset their orthodox neighbors if they are seen driving.

There's a big difference.

I saw this article posted upthread. Please read it to see how this could've been written in a way less biased way. Same content. Vastly different tone in terms of its portrayal of the chassidish community.

https://jewishstandard.timesof.....tive/


Last edited by InnerMe on Mon, Jun 28 2021, 6:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Amarante




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 28 2021, 6:42 pm
The reporter is reporting what the woman told her. How else would she know the woman didn’t drive in her neighborhood and the reason she didn’t.

Most secular people would have no idea about not driving unless they were told.

I am finding it interesting that people are so defensive about accurate reporting based on what the woman herself told the reporter. Should not driving be kept a secret.
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