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Do you bake challos in a meat or dairy oven
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amother




Plum
 

Post Wed, Jul 07 2021, 1:04 pm
amother [ Oldlace ] wrote:
1000% it’s easier. But either you redid your kitchen at great expense or you bought a custom home or you have a kitchen large enough to accommodate this. Either way it comes down to (and I don’t say this to sound rude or gd forbid jealous) $ and not frumkeit. Sorry to say but 2 ovens and 2 dishwashers only exists in large kitchens. As I said I don’t knew Anyone in real life who has this (only on Imamother) for those who have the space and the $, kol hakavod!


I live OOT where it's easier to get a larger house for way less $. I also bought my home over 20 years ago and paid less than $150,000 for it, before the market went up. We did redo the kitchen a few years after we bought it, but it was not "at great expense." My counters are formica, my floors are laminate, I do not have a backsplash and my ovens are standard slide-in GE. No fancy cabinetry or lighting. What we consciously chose to spend our $ on is designing it in a way that we could fit two separate "sides" of the kitchen, each with an oven, sink and dishwasher, so that it would be easier from a kashrus perspective. I just wanted to clarify that we are definitely not wealthy and it is still possible for "regular" people to have two ovens.
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cinderella22




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jul 07 2021, 1:07 pm
ShishKabob wrote:
Can you smear cream cheese on such challah?


Yes.

There can be no transfer of food particles unless there is either food residue in the oven or a liquid which is creating steam.

Therefore a dry food baked in a clean oven will be purely parev.

This is the case with my challah, for which I make sure to clean my oven to ensure it is completely free of food residue.

The questions begin when considering when the food being baked is liquid, which causes problems of zeiah, or when there are both milk and meat foods in the oven at the same time, which is a problem of reichah.

Here is an article from the star k which outlines these issues in depth: https://www.star-k.org/article.....reve/
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amother




Oldlace
 

Post Wed, Jul 07 2021, 1:12 pm
amother [ Plum ] wrote:
I live OOT where it's easier to get a larger house for way less $. I also bought my home over 20 years ago and paid less than $150,000 for it, before the market went up. We did redo the kitchen a few years after we bought it, but it was not "at great expense." My counters are formica, my floors are laminate, I do not have a backsplash and my ovens are standard slide-in GE. No fancy cabinetry or lighting. What we consciously chose to spend our $ on is designing it in a way that we could fit two separate "sides" of the kitchen, each with an oven, sink and dishwasher, so that it would be easier from a kashrus perspective. I just wanted to clarify that we are definitely not wealthy and it is still possible for "regular" people to have two ovens.


First off:There is literally zero judgement here. Your set up sounds glorious. It’s just not feasible for many people.

Second, in the NY area where I live, many many people rent. We obviously can not renovate a rental property. Also in large cities (Brooklyn, Manhattan) many kitchens are smaller and we just don’t have ‘2 sides’. Of course it’s ideal if we did but we just don’t have ‘sides’. We don’t even have 2 sinks! Sometimes we only have one side of counter, and we have to be aware and careful that what we put down is not hot. It just means that we have to learn and know these Halachos and apply them on a daily basis
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Undefined




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jul 07 2021, 1:12 pm
A couple questions:
What is the problem with making is in a meat oven if you always only eat it with meat?
Also, for those of you who make dairy in a toaster oven how big is your toaster? Can you fit a 9 by 13 lasagna for example?
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amother




Birch
 

Post Wed, Jul 07 2021, 1:14 pm
amother [ Oldlace ] wrote:
Franky it’s those who live in ore affluent communities who have this Shaila. The rest of the world has 1 oven and you use it for everything. There are well publicized psakim about how to make it work halachically.


(I’ve never met anyone in real life who has 2 ovens)


Actually, most people I know have 2 ovens, it has nothing to do with an affluent community. It's common standard nowadays for a frum home to have 2 ovens. Many people have 3. I don't really bake dairy so I never felt the need to have 2 ovens.
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amother




Teal
 

Post Wed, Jul 07 2021, 1:14 pm
Whenever a rabbi tells you that you need two ovens, ask him how many ovens his great-grandmother had.

I have two sinks, two ovens, and three dishwashers. It's easy and convenient, but totally not halachically necessary.

My grandmothers, and generations of religious women before them, kept kosher kitchens with one sink and one oven.

We should not let our affluence lead us into ignorance.
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amother




Birch
 

Post Wed, Jul 07 2021, 1:17 pm
amother [ Teal ] wrote:
Whenever a rabbi tells you that you need two ovens, ask him how many ovens his great-grandmother had.

I have two sinks, two ovens, and three dishwashers. It's easy and convenient, but totally not halachically necessary.

My grandmothers, and generations of religious women before them, kept kosher kitchens with one sink and one oven.

We should not let our affluence lead us into ignorance.


Our grandparents ovens was made of earth, clay, and stone and I think it was only used to bake challos. Chicken was cooked or broiled directly on the fire.
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amother




Vanilla
 

Post Wed, Jul 07 2021, 1:24 pm
thunderstorm wrote:
My rav is not Chasidish or Chabad and he holds this as well. I do change from pareve to fleishig but not milchig to fleishig . The reason why we can’t do it on a constant basis is because we could come to forgetting what it was last changed to and can accidentally bake fleishigs in a milchig oven or vise versus.

So interesting. Never knew the exact reason.
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ShishKabob




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jul 07 2021, 1:26 pm
cinderella22 wrote:
Yes.

There can be no transfer of food particles unless there is either food residue in the oven or a liquid which is creating steam.

Therefore a dry food baked in a clean oven will be purely parev.

This is the case with my challah, for which I make sure to clean my oven to ensure it is completely free of food residue.

The questions begin when considering when the food being baked is liquid, which causes problems of zeiah, or when there are both milk and meat foods in the oven at the same time, which is a problem of reichah.

Here is an article from the star k which outlines these issues in depth: https://www.star-k.org/article.....reve/
I think my Rabbi disagrees with this, but I'll ask him.
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amother




Plum
 

Post Wed, Jul 07 2021, 1:27 pm
amother [ Oldlace ] wrote:
First off:There is literally zero judgement here. Your set up sounds glorious. It’s just not feasible for many people.

Second, in the NY area where I live, many many people rent. We obviously can not renovate a rental property. Also in large cities (Brooklyn, Manhattan) many kitchens are smaller and we just don’t have ‘2 sides’. Of course it’s ideal if we did but we just don’t have ‘sides’. We don’t even have 2 sinks! Sometimes we only have one side of counter, and we have to be aware and careful that what we put down is not hot. It just means that we have to learn and know these Halachos and apply them on a daily basis


Understood. I lived in Israel with a tiny kitchen for part of my childhood and rented an apt. in my current city for a few years after marriage before we bought our house, so I get that not everyone can have the same set-up. I am very thankful for the one I have and wouldn't trade it for a fancier house without my easy kitchen (maybe one day we will win the lottery and upgrade to a granite countertop!). I guess if you live in NY it may seem like only affluent people can have a large kitchen, so I wanted to raise an awareness that it is not true for other parts of the U.S.

I also agree with all the posters who stated that we need to know the halachos and not be ignorant, regardless of the number of sinks and ovens we may have at that time.
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SafeAtLast




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jul 07 2021, 1:28 pm
amother [ Vanilla ] wrote:
Chabad, and as per the Alter Rebbe's Shulchan Aruch, we hold that you can't switch over from meat to dairy on a constant basis. If you want to convert it once and use it that way, that's fine, but we don't go back and forth.


Some people hold that if you bake it covered it does not turn meat or dairy.
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amother




Oldlace
 

Post Wed, Jul 07 2021, 1:41 pm
amother [ Birch ] wrote:
Actually, most people I know have 2 ovens, it has nothing to do with an affluent community. It's common standard nowadays for a frum home to have 2 ovens. Many people have 3. I don't really bake dairy so I never felt the need to have 2 ovens.


Emphasis on nowadays. 2/2 modern day affluence that the post war generation didn’t have.
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amother




Oldlace
 

Post Wed, Jul 07 2021, 1:44 pm
amother [ Birch ] wrote:
Our grandparents ovens was made of earth, clay, and stone and I think it was only used to bake challos. Chicken was cooked or broiled directly on the fire.


LOL my grandparents lived in BP! They most certainly had a typical oven and stovetop!!
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amother




Holly
 

Post Wed, Jul 07 2021, 1:45 pm
amother [ Oldlace ] wrote:
Franky it’s those who live in ore affluent communities who have this Shaila. The rest of the world has 1 oven and you use it for everything. There are well publicized psakim about how to make it work halachically.


(I’ve never met anyone in real life who has 2 ovens)


I live in a small house, small kitchen but have 3 full size ovens, I grew up like that so was a priority for me
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amother




Oldlace
 

Post Wed, Jul 07 2021, 1:48 pm
amother [ Teal ] wrote:
Whenever a rabbi tells you that you need two ovens, ask him how many ovens his great-grandmother had.

I have two sinks, two ovens, and three dishwashers. It's easy and convenient, but totally not halachically necessary.

My grandmothers, and generations of religious women before them, kept kosher kitchens with one sink and one oven.

We should not let our affluence lead us into ignorance.


Exactly this.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jul 07 2021, 2:31 pm
To clean my oven after baking uncovered chicken,

I put disposable pans of water in my oven and turn it on 350 for 15 minutes

so the oven is covered in steam.

I pour some of the water from the pans on the oven floor where it turns into more steam.

Wearing oven mitts, I wipe down the inside of the oven with a damp paper towel.

If I see anything dirty, I use wet steel wool dipped in baking soda to scrub it off.

I avoid using Easy Off or any chemical cleaners. Don't want that on my food.
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amother




Lemonlime
 

Post Wed, Jul 07 2021, 4:36 pm
Any baking is done more than 24 hours after making fleishigs. The oven is clean. I line the racks for fleishigs.
You can self clean in between and not have to wait 24 hours. OR - and CYLOR - if the oven is clean, put it at its highest for about an hour. Generally though the oven is clean and I can wait in between.

I got a large oven, like the 2 rack one on a recent thread. I use it for milchig. I can fit two round homemade pizzas or 2 9x13s in it. I have to keep it in another room but it's been a game changer. I don't have to make covered milchig in my oven anymore.
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Scotty




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jul 07 2021, 5:40 pm
As per my Rav I put my oven on broil before baking challah and it’s pareve (for cream cheese too!)

Note: I make sure there is no residue though.

The Lakewood Bais Horaah told me I can do this with milchig/fleishig when I asked shavuos time. (Burn out one hour before milchig snd afterward so it’s pareve again.)

Don’t take this as a psak, ask your LOR.
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amother




Eggshell
 

Post Wed, Jul 07 2021, 5:53 pm
Undefined wrote:
A couple questions:
What is the problem with making is in a meat oven if you always only eat it with meat?
Also, for those of you who make dairy in a toaster oven how big is your toaster? Can you fit a 9 by 13 lasagna for example?

It's not a problem if you don't mind being meaty. Some people at my table only eat the parve dishes so they can have coffee and ice cream afterwards.
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tigerwife




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jul 07 2021, 6:21 pm
amother [ Eggshell ] wrote:
It's not a problem if you don't mind being meaty. Some people at my table only eat the parve dishes so they can have coffee and ice cream afterwards.


Challah baked in a fleishig oven won’t make you fleishig; it just cannot be eaten together with something dairy.
We bake challah in the meat oven but I don’t use if for meat for 24 hours (Ben yomo) and “burn out” the oven by keeping it on a high temperature for at least 45 minutes so that my challos are fully pareve and can be eaten with dairy if we wish.
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