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amother




Yolk
 

Post Thu, Jul 15 2021, 1:32 pm
amother [ Firethorn ] wrote:
I also BF until they self-wean. I don't think it influences how well they sleep or sleep train.
I'm sorry your kids are allergic, that's tough. Kudos to you for the extended BF though.


I hear from my friends who feed formula that their babies sleep better. My theory is either because they feel more full or because they don’t associate their mother’s presence with eating, so if she comes in to soothe her baby quickly, they don’t need to nurse for a long period of time. If I walk into the room at night my baby is not satisfied unless I nurse her. Before I did CIO it was 3-4 times a night at age 1 year. Now it’s once at 11-12 and then she sleeps until 6.
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amother




Firethorn
 

Post Thu, Jul 15 2021, 1:36 pm
amother [ Yolk ] wrote:
Yup. It was ideal for me and my baby at that time with our circumstances.

And I can say it has no lasting effects. You can’t say that it does without proving it.

You can't say that it does if you don't know what to look for, either. And of course we can't prove that it harmed your kids without meeting your kids.

If it was your last resort then it wasn't ideal, but it was the only thing that worked. There's nothing wrong with saying that.

There were months my kids ate whole veggies and sandwiches they made themselves for supper. A 3yo and 6yo. It wasn't ideal but it worked for us at that time. I don't recommend it or claim it's good parenting, I don't claim that it didn't have lasting effects. It was the best option at the time - we had no help, couldn't afford to buy take-out every day, couldn't have DH quit his job or come home early every day to make supper, and he wasn't managing to make supper every night for the next day (sometimes he managed, but not often). I was sick and had severe HG. It was what it was.

BTW I thought my kids had handled the HG great and weren't traumatized at all, for a couple years. Then I learned more about what trauma looks like, looked back from a healthier place at where we'd been and where we were later, and realized I was very wrong.
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amother




Firethorn
 

Post Thu, Jul 15 2021, 1:37 pm
amother [ Yolk ] wrote:
I hear from my friends who feed formula that their babies sleep better. My theory is either because they feel more full or because they don’t associate their mother’s presence with eating, so if she comes in to soothe her baby quickly, they don’t need to nurse for a long period of time. If I walk into the room at night my baby is not satisfied unless I nurse her. Before I did CIO it was 3-4 times a night at age 1 year. Now it’s once at 11-12 and then she sleeps until 6.

Formula takes longer to digest so they feel full longer and the digestion tires them out more.
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amother




Emerald
 

Post Thu, Jul 15 2021, 1:37 pm
amother [ Yolk ] wrote:
Yup. It was ideal for me and my baby at that time with our circumstances.

And I can say it has no lasting effects. You can’t say that it does without proving it.


It's not supposed to be ideal for you. It's supposed to be ideal for the baby. And because it was ideal under the circumstances, it doesn't mean that it's an ideal choice. It's the lesser of the 2 evils and there's nothing wrong with admitting that.
You can't say that there are no lasting effects because your kids are young and it's impossible to know if the trauma will come out later. What we do know for a fact is that many adults suffer from childhood trauma. What we do know for a fact is that childhood trauma specialists are against CIO. We do know for a fact that just because a child is happy, it doesn't mean that there's no trauma.
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amother




Crocus
 

Post Thu, Jul 15 2021, 2:15 pm
amother [ Emerald ] wrote:
It's not supposed to be ideal for you. It's supposed to be ideal for the baby. And because it was ideal under the circumstances, it doesn't mean that it's an ideal choice. It's the lesser of the 2 evils and there's nothing wrong with admitting that.
You can't say that there are no lasting effects because your kids are young and it's impossible to know if the trauma will come out later. What we do know for a fact is that many adults suffer from childhood trauma. What we do know for a fact is that childhood trauma specialists are against CIO. We do know for a fact that just because a child is happy, it doesn't mean that there's no trauma.


Amother Emerald, I get that you are extremely opposed to CIO, and it could be the written medium makes it harder for expression to come through. But you are coming across as quite aggressive about your beliefs. In your world, CIO is not an option. I get that and I respect that. But is there not any room for tolerance that other people may feel differently?
I find it hard to believe that 2 nights where the child learnt to fall asleep by themselves would cause such dramatic changes to the brain that it will create life-long trauma.
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amother




Cobalt
 

Post Thu, Jul 15 2021, 2:54 pm
I think the fundamental question is if the baby learned that they can fall asleep without help ("hey, cool, if I just stop crying for a few minutes and lay here quietly with my eyes closed, I fall asleep!") or if they learned despair ("when I am in this crib in a dark room, and feel uncomfortable, there is no point in calling out for help. nobody will come help me.").

From a logical point of view, it is hard to argue that putting someone into a situation that they are scared or lonely in, and enforcing that situation, is emotionally ideal.

Some examples (imperfect):

Taking a kid who is scared of spiders, and locking them in a room with spiders. Tell them they will be fine, and walk out. Let them scream as much as they want. Eventually they will learn that spiders won't hurt them.

Taking a kid who is clingy or afraid of being alone, and putting him in solitary confinement for a few hours a day. Eventually he'll get used to being alone and will stop clinging to you so much.

Taking a kid who is scared of the water, strapping on SCUBA gear so they can breathe, and tossing them in the deep end. After a few days of doing this, they will stop screaming and flailing every time you go to the pool, and will probably learn to swim, too.

A baby who is crying in his bed is not trying to manipulate you or annoy you. He is scared, lonely, or tired and uncomfortable with that feeling. Crying is his only way of communicating. He is telling you he wants help. As much as you feel that leaving him to cry himself to sleep is helping him, he is unlikely to perceive it in the same way.

Especially when there are gentler ways of teaching a baby that tired = sleep and crib = safe place to let yourself fall asleep, it is hard to argue that CIO should be a default choice.
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amother




Firethorn
 

Post Thu, Jul 15 2021, 3:40 pm
amother [ Cobalt ] wrote:
I think the fundamental question is if the baby learned that they can fall asleep without help ("hey, cool, if I just stop crying for a few minutes and lay here quietly with my eyes closed, I fall asleep!") or if they learned despair ("when I am in this crib in a dark room, and feel uncomfortable, there is no point in calling out for help. nobody will come help me.").

From a logical point of view, it is hard to argue that putting someone into a situation that they are scared or lonely in, and enforcing that situation, is emotionally ideal.

Some examples (imperfect):

Taking a kid who is scared of spiders, and locking them in a room with spiders. Tell them they will be fine, and walk out. Let them scream as much as they want. Eventually they will learn that spiders won't hurt them.

Taking a kid who is clingy or afraid of being alone, and putting him in solitary confinement for a few hours a day. Eventually he'll get used to being alone and will stop clinging to you so much.

Taking a kid who is scared of the water, strapping on SCUBA gear so they can breathe, and tossing them in the deep end. After a few days of doing this, they will stop screaming and flailing every time you go to the pool, and will probably learn to swim, too.

A baby who is crying in his bed is not trying to manipulate you or annoy you. He is scared, lonely, or tired and uncomfortable with that feeling. Crying is his only way of communicating. He is telling you he wants help. As much as you feel that leaving him to cry himself to sleep is helping him, he is unlikely to perceive it in the same way.

Especially when there are gentler ways of teaching a baby that tired = sleep and crib = safe place to let yourself fall asleep, it is hard to argue that CIO should be a default choice.

I have another example.

My baby was just kvetching for 20 minutes. Almost asleep but not quite. Literally "refusing" to fall asleep. I did everything. Eventually I called over DH. DH took the baby and within 3 minutes the baby was asleep.

I could've left the baby alone in the crib. Then baby would've learned, "When I want Tatty and Tatty is busy with a sibling, Mommy puts me in my crib all by myself and no one comes." Instead, baby learned, "When I want Tatty and Tatty is busy with a sibling, Mommy holds me and comforts me and doesn't give me Tatty but then Tatty comes and takes me from Mommy and I feel better."
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amother




Brown
 

Post Thu, Jul 15 2021, 4:35 pm
I wonder how all the anti-any form of CIO because it causes long-lasting, unknowable trauma mothers feel about subjecting 7-day old babies to a bris.
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amother




Firethorn
 

Post Thu, Jul 15 2021, 4:38 pm
amother [ Brown ] wrote:
I wonder how all the anti-any form of CIO because it causes long-lasting, unknowable trauma mothers feel about subjecting 7-day old babies to a bris.

It hurts but I do it because Hashem said so.

Hashem never said let a baby cry it out and there are stories of big rabbanim and rebbeim who davka did not let babies CIO.

You don't have to try to be frummer than the Torah.
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amother




Cobalt
 

Post Thu, Jul 15 2021, 4:41 pm
amother [ Brown ] wrote:
I wonder how all the anti-any form of CIO because it causes long-lasting, unknowable trauma mothers feel about subjecting 7-day old babies to a bris.

1) If I wasn't a religious Jew, I wouldn't do it.

2) If I wasn't a religious Jew, it wouldn't be a [relatively] gentle bris, surrounded by loving and caring people. If you want to horrify yourself, research what a hospital circumcision is like.

3) Some sort of pain is inevitable in life. But to deliberately cause that pain WITHOUT COMFORT is traumatic. Do I have to give my child shots? Yes. But I do it in my arms, comfort them with words and hand squeezes, and nurse them immediately afterwards. I wouldn't have the doctor give the shot, then leave them to cry so they get used to it, because after all they will have an awful lot of shots to get used to.
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gootlfriends




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jul 15 2021, 4:45 pm
I think expecting a baby to sleep 12 hours is unrealistic. Its unnatural. And formula fed babies are not really any different from nursed babies. My son was formula fed but needed comfort during the night. My daughter is ff but she had pumped milk until 4 months and she slept the same amount. Woke up once a night to eat. When varies/varied. Babies havent changed just because mothers work. That's the sad reality.
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amother




NeonYellow
 

Post Thu, Jul 15 2021, 4:52 pm
amother [ Firethorn ] wrote:
It hurts but I do it because Hashem said so.

Hashem never said let a baby cry it out and there are stories of big rabbanim and rebbeim who davka did not let babies CIO.

You don't have to try to be frummer than the Torah.


Oh, now it's the Torah? I forgot the Torah's Ten Commandments of Parenting, where one of them is Thou Shall Never Cry It Out.

A parenting style does not a halacha make.
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amother




NeonYellow
 

Post Thu, Jul 15 2021, 4:53 pm
gootlfriends wrote:
I think expecting a baby to sleep 12 hours is unrealistic. Its unnatural. And formula fed babies are not really any different from nursed babies. My son was formula fed but needed comfort during the night. My daughter is ff but she had pumped milk until 4 months and she slept the same amount. Woke up once a night to eat. When varies/varied. Babies havent changed just because mothers work. That's the sad reality.


Literally no one here said they leave their babies for 12 hours. No one.
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amother




Firethorn
 

Post Thu, Jul 15 2021, 5:01 pm
amother [ NeonYellow ] wrote:
Oh, now it's the Torah? I forgot the Torah's Ten Commandments of Parenting, where one of them is Thou Shall Never Cry It Out.

A parenting style does not a halacha make.

That's a stupid answer. Brit milah is also not one of the Ten Commandments, nor is Thou Shalt Sleep Train Your Baby. (And you're the one who brought in Torah, by asking what we think of a mitzva d'oraysa.)

Give me a break.

BTW Torah takes it for granted that babies sleep in the same room as their parents and even in the same bed. Look in halacha, you'll see it comes up there a lot.
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amother




Ivory
 

Post Thu, Jul 15 2021, 5:24 pm
amother [ Firethorn ] wrote:

BTW Torah takes it for granted that babies sleep in the same room as their parents and even in the same bed. Look in halacha, you'll see it comes up there a lot.


Yeah, it's almost like halacha was written in a different time period.

Personally I sleep with my baby a lot. A lot of people here are too nervous or they can't or won't for other reasons. And those are the same people who think other details from the same texts and even same sections of texts have to be taken very literally or seriously.

That's nice that a lot of rabbanim and rebbeim didn't let their babies CIO. It suggests that the father took care of the baby at night which is more than many of us can say. (Unless it means that they pressured their wives, in which case I'll be mad.)
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amother




Emerald
 

Post Thu, Jul 15 2021, 5:36 pm
amother [ Crocus ] wrote:
Amother Emerald, I get that you are extremely opposed to CIO, and it could be the written medium makes it harder for expression to come through. But you are coming across as quite aggressive about your beliefs. In your world, CIO is not an option. I get that and I respect that. But is there not any room for tolerance that other people may feel differently?
I find it hard to believe that 2 nights where the child learnt to fall asleep by themselves would cause such dramatic changes to the brain that it will create life-long trauma.


Then you don't know what trauma is and how trauma works.
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gootlfriends




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jul 15 2021, 5:48 pm
amother [ NeonYellow ] wrote:
Literally no one here said they leave their babies for 12 hours. No one.

Wow defensive much? I was exaggerating but I feel that if a baby wakes up and cries more than 5 minutes, they need something. Not all babies can self soothe, my oldest couldn't. Babies get scared and need to be reassured. If a baby is waking up a lot, they need to be held for a minute. To be told their needs are important.
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amother




Firethorn
 

Post Thu, Jul 15 2021, 5:50 pm
amother [ Ivory ] wrote:
Yeah, it's almost like halacha was written in a different time period.

Personally I sleep with my baby a lot. A lot of people here are too nervous or they can't or won't for other reasons. And those are the same people who think other details from the same texts and even same sections of texts have to be taken very literally or seriously.

That's nice that a lot of rabbanim and rebbeim didn't let their babies CIO. It suggests that the father took care of the baby at night which is more than many of us can say. (Unless it means that they pressured their wives, in which case I'll be mad.)

Yes it means that the father got up in the middle of the night.

I was negating her cynical statement about Torah.
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amother




Firethorn
 

Post Thu, Jul 15 2021, 6:09 pm
amother [ Emerald ] wrote:
Then you don't know what trauma is and how trauma works.

She does admit that it lasts for life, but says it's about teaching life lessons in self-soothing skills.

Trauma can literally be a five-minute experience. Most traumatic experiences aren't more than that.

Look at the Israeli kids traumatized from one or two sirens, the sirens lasted a minute or so and they went with their parents to the safe room. It still lasts forever.

Look at all the zxual trauma victims, those experiences often last just five or ten minutes, once in a lifetime, and yet they leave scars that remain until the person dies (and the person is at higher risk of suicide).

Look at the bystanders in terror attacks, they watch three to five minutes of violence that doesn't even hurt them yet they are traumatized often for life.

I could go on and on but the point is trauma can be created in five minutes, even if the experience happens only once.
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amother




NeonYellow
 

Post Thu, Jul 15 2021, 8:01 pm
amother [ Firethorn ] wrote:
That's a stupid answer. Brit milah is also not one of the Ten Commandments, nor is Thou Shalt Sleep Train Your Baby. (And you're the one who brought in Torah, by asking what we think of a mitzva d'oraysa.)

Give me a break.

BTW Torah takes it for granted that babies sleep in the same room as their parents and even in the same bed. Look in halacha, you'll see it comes up there a lot.


Bris milah is in the Torah. Hashem gave Avraham an express command to do it to himself and his offspring, which is a command for the ages.

Where in the Torah is sleep training?

It never says that one is obligated to have babies sleep in the same room as their parents. And even if they are, it's further a mistake to assume that just because a baby is in the same room as their parents, they're not CIO. You're thinking of the ma'aseh with the two women and King Shlomo. Clearly, the message is that co-sleeping can lead to infant death, so not sure why this is what you consider a worthy enterprise here.

Call me stupid all you want, but don't try to gain a moral advantage in an argument by behaving as if the Torah says something you believe, without any sources to back your point.
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