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Middle class is absolutely awful!!
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 16 2021, 5:06 am
Also, is there any way to talk to the tuition committee about this?

I do think it makes sense that they want a big chunk of whatever increased earnings you have.

But they should recognize that working more hours means having more expenses. Like, if you earn $20,000 more and then pay $4,000 more in taxes, and need to spend $3,000 on cleaning help and $3,000 on babysitting, they should be treating that as 'OP has increased her earnings, post-expenses, by $10,000' not 'OP has another $20,000 to give us.'

And ideally, there'd be some kind of system where they're taking, like, 50%-70% of new post-expenses income, not 100%, so that they don't discourage people from working. If they really are taking 100% of new income, I bet you're not the only one upset at that - is there any way a group of parents could talk to them? It really is a terrible incentives system. The school needs to be paid for the services they provide, but they also need to think long term.
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amother
DarkKhaki


 

Post Fri, Jul 16 2021, 6:01 am
Yup. I'm super established in my field, and have more or less reaches the top of the ladder, which allows flexibility. My husband's climbing the ladder in his. We basically realizes that it makes sense that every time he climbs it makes the most sense for me to cut my hours to keep our household income at the same point (above medicaid and WIC, but low enough for tax credits and reduced tution). My field is such that I can jump back to full time hours when necessary, so when we hit the point that his salary plus my top potential is enough to get enough to make it worth it, we can jump above that middle sink hole.
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amother
Seablue


 

Post Fri, Jul 16 2021, 7:15 am
amother [ Birch ] wrote:
You don’t have more then those that earn less

Child tax credits
Child stimulus
Affordable housing with locked in taxes or HUD
Wic
Food stamps (which are now giving crazy amounts)
Free cell phone
Free health insurance (including glasses for kids) (that alone costs me 12,000 a year + copays + meds)
HEAP to help with gas bill in winter
Day camp assistance
Tuition deduction

I Work more then 40 hrs a week. Live with stress. Balancing kids and life. See 30% of my income disappear to the government. To watch ppl who work 20 hrs a week and spend lots of leisure time with their kids making 20,000 + in child tax rebates.
I feel so stupid.


This! Some ppl are clueless and think 200k means u come home with 200k.
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 16 2021, 7:25 am
I don't understand why you would want to live off of tzedaka? Is that not valuable for you? Do you not believe in hishtadlus?

Yes, it is harder. It is a stepping stone towards financial independence.
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amother
Valerian


 

Post Fri, Jul 16 2021, 7:31 am
I don’t agree with equating tuition breaks with government programs. Government programs are paid for by hundreds of millions of taxpayers. Tuition breaks are paid for by tzedakah, essentially.
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amother
DarkKhaki


 

Post Fri, Jul 16 2021, 8:18 am
amother [ Valerian ] wrote:
I don’t agree with equating tuition breaks with government programs. Government programs are paid for by hundreds of millions of taxpayers. Tuition breaks are paid for by tzedakah, essentially.


There's also different levels of tuition breaks. Let's estimate it actually costs 8-12k to educate a child. Schools charge 15-20k as "full" knowing full well that many families cant pay full. If I pay 10k, no one else is paying for my kids education, I'm just not helping pay anyone elses. I have no problem helping other people if I can, but I'm not working extra hours just to pay their tution and come home with less money.
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amother
Birch


 

Post Fri, Jul 16 2021, 8:31 am
saw50st8 wrote:
I don't understand why you would want to live off of tzedaka? Is that not valuable for you? Do you not believe in hishtadlus?

Yes, it is harder. It is a stepping stone towards financial independence.


I know what you mean and typically I think this way.
Today I’m printing thousands of dollars of camp help checks for family members. They worked minimal hours in the summer. Take weeks off. Get to spend time at the beach and park with their kids.
I have no vacation bec I used it all for yomim Tovim. I’m lucky I can work nights to accommodate my kids schedules but that means we have no life. I do nothing with them. Last night I saw firefly s outside and I was thinking I forgot this even existed. I’m not sure at this point after many years the trade off has been worth it.
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amother
Marigold


 

Post Fri, Jul 16 2021, 8:53 am
amother [ Outerspace ] wrote:
30 percent? That means you're making well over 200k. Are you sure your just not managing your money well?


Believe me, she's managing her money well. Middle class is poor, especially a frum family. Earning a lot doesn't mean that you come home with a lot. Every time we get a raise, we lose more. Taxes go up, insurance goes up, it's crazy.
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causemommysaid




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 16 2021, 9:19 am
saw50st8 wrote:
I don't understand why you would want to live off of tzedaka? Is that not valuable for you? Do you not believe in hishtadlus?

Yes, it is harder. It is a stepping stone towards financial independence.


Ideally this attitude is correct but practically giving up raising your kids and all the stress of a long commute and long work hours isn't worth it unless the pay is significantly higher.

Going from earning 30k to 50k pretax and losing all your benefits is simply not worth the effort. It's an unfortunate world we live in.
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Cmon be nice




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 16 2021, 9:36 am
causemommysaid wrote:
Ideally this attitude is correct but practically giving up raising your kids and all the stress of a long commute and long work hours isn't worth it unless the pay is significantly higher.

Going from earning 30k to 50k pretax and losing all your benefits is simply not worth the effort. It's an unfortunate world we live in.


Especially as the government (in the states) goes more socialist there will just be more freebees. Obviously no one saw Corona coming but how many threads have there been where people didn't qualify for the stimulus payments cuz they made a few thousand over the limit?
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amother
Birch


 

Post Fri, Jul 16 2021, 9:43 am
amother [ Outerspace ] wrote:
30 percent? That means you're making well over 200k. Are you sure your just not managing your money well?


30% is normal. (Besides all healthcare deductions).

Plus I got a lot of extra money this year that pushed us over some thresholds. Both were a long time coming. The company was sold. I had earned stocks in the company and a one time bonus for extra work. I was so excited with all the things I was going to do with the cash. By the time I got my part there was barely anything there. I wanted to cry. I had waited years for both and the government took almost half!!! For this I kill myself?
And then my neighbor tells me how she woke up to $1500 cash in her bank account…


(For all this talking tuition we live really super frugal so we can afford tuition. It is very important to me. I think some of you would be shocked to see the size home someone making 200k and living responsibly lives in)
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 16 2021, 9:44 am
amother [ Marigold ] wrote:
Believe me, she's managing her money well. Middle class is poor, especially a frum family. Earning a lot doesn't mean that you come home with a lot. Every time we get a raise, we lose more. Taxes go up, insurance goes up, it's crazy.

I can get how someone sees tax money as 'lost', but tuition? That's not lost money, that's spent money. You're getting something you want in exchange.
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amother
Ivory


 

Post Fri, Jul 16 2021, 12:20 pm
so what's one to do?
you're all scaring me

I'm planning to go off all benefits
and we'll be earning gross total 126K
[seven children]
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amother
Clover


 

Post Fri, Jul 16 2021, 12:21 pm
amother [ Ivory ] wrote:
so what's one to do?
you're all scaring me

I'm planning to go off all benefits
and we'll be earning gross total 126K
[seven children]

In the long run, especially when you are preparing for retirement or ever need to take out a loan, you will be better off.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 16 2021, 12:37 pm
familyfirst wrote:
Ideologically, I’d work harder for Better pay even if it went to taxes etc
Practically, if this trade off would affect my kids by having a more harried mom home for fewer hours, I’d wait. You are legally entitled to the programs- enjoy them. At the right time, you can trade in the programs for longer hours of work.

Tough spot to be in. Agreed that the middle class often gets the raw end of the deal

I agree with this.

Financial independence is nice, but if it will rob of you of precious years with your children I don't think it's worth it.
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amother
Junglegreen


 

Post Fri, Jul 16 2021, 12:49 pm
I always said this, that middle class have it the hardest. They don't get any government help and less breaks.

That said I always worked full time for a few reasons.
--my ego. I don't want to be on government programs.
--It feels good to be able to pay tuition and be able to afford my kids education. I know the schools are drowning themselves.
--I work in an industry that it's hard to find part time work, and it's constantly changing, so I need to work or will fall behind.
--Each year of experience gives me potential for a higher salary. I'm making almost triple now what I made when I first started working 20 years ago
--At some point I won't be paying tuition. At that point I will be earning and keeping my salary. I'd like to be able to make my kids chasunas without going into debt. I'd like to be able to help my kids get on their own two feet.
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amother
Lotus


 

Post Fri, Jul 16 2021, 12:51 pm
amother [ Outerspace ] wrote:
30 percent? That means you're making well over 200k. Are you sure your just not managing your money well?


The 34% cutoff is 170k
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amother
Marigold


 

Post Fri, Jul 16 2021, 12:53 pm
amother [ Ivory ] wrote:
so what's one to do?
you're all scaring me

I'm planning to go off all benefits
and we'll be earning gross total 126K
[seven children]


You'll need to learn to live frugally on that amount. It's not easy.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 16 2021, 12:53 pm
amother [ Lotus ] wrote:
The 34% cutoff is 170k

I just googled it, she's right. The effective tax rate turns into 30% in New York city at around the 200k mark.

ETA: That actually doesn't make sense. the calculator wrote that the FICA rate is 1.45% but of course it's much higher?
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imorethanamother




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 16 2021, 12:57 pm
amother [ DarkKhaki ] wrote:
There's also different levels of tuition breaks. Let's estimate it actually costs 8-12k to educate a child. Schools charge 15-20k as "full" knowing full well that many families cant pay full. If I pay 10k, no one else is paying for my kids education, I'm just not helping pay anyone elses. I have no problem helping other people if I can, but I'm not working extra hours just to pay their tution and come home with less money.


Wow. Just...wow.

That's okay, the rest of us will just pick up the slack because you don't want to! I'm proud to pay full tuition, and I'm privileged and proud that Hashem has enabled me to do so. I was raised in a family where my mother davened that they should be zoche to pay full tuition, and they did. We didn't live luxuriously, we didn't take vacations, my parents knew what was important. They didn't do an investigation into the tuition breakdown, they acknowledged that part of it was to help others and they were glad to do it.
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