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Middle class is absolutely awful!!
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imorethanamother




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Jul 16 2021, 1:02 pm
amother [ Birch ] wrote:
I know what you mean and typically I think this way.
Today I’m printing thousands of dollars of camp help checks for family members. They worked minimal hours in the summer. Take weeks off. Get to spend time at the beach and park with their kids.
I have no vacation bec I used it all for yomim Tovim. I’m lucky I can work nights to accommodate my kids schedules but that means we have no life. I do nothing with them. Last night I saw firefly s outside and I was thinking I forgot this even existed. I’m not sure at this point after many years the trade off has been worth it.


You do have the right to say no. You don't have to pay for anyone's camp, camp is a luxury.

I think modeling to your kids how to work and hold a good job is never a bad thing. I hear you about the long hours, but I make sure that Shabbos and Sundays are our time. Do you have weekends off?
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amother




Birch
 

Post Fri, Jul 16 2021, 1:09 pm
imorethanamother wrote:
You do have the right to say no. You don't have to pay for anyone's camp, camp is a luxury.

I think modeling to your kids how to work and hold a good job is never a bad thing. I hear you about the long hours, but I make sure that Shabbos and Sundays are our time. Do you have weekends off?


I’m not paying for it. Just printing the checks on my printer they received via email.

Ppl who work full time need Sunday’s for shopping, cooking, cleaning, organizing, appointments.

I take what @mommyg8 said earlier to heart.

I’ve worked away the years of my kids childhood.
I’ll never get those years back
I look at others who didn’t
I’m not convinced it was worth it.
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amother




Birch
 

Post Fri, Jul 16 2021, 1:10 pm
amother [ Lotus ] wrote:
The 34% cutoff is 170k


Don’t forget there is also state tax. And where my dh works there is a city tax on top of state.
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amother




Marigold
 

Post Fri, Jul 16 2021, 1:11 pm
imorethanamother wrote:
Wow. Just...wow.

That's okay, the rest of us will just pick up the slack because you don't want to! I'm proud to pay full tuition, and I'm privileged and proud that Hashem has enabled me to do so. I was raised in a family where my mother davened that they should be zoche to pay full tuition, and they did. We didn't live luxuriously, we didn't take vacations, my parents knew what was important. They didn't do an investigation into the tuition breakdown, they acknowledged that part of it was to help others and they were glad to do it.


Paying $10K tuition instead of $15k-$20k is not a tuition break. Tuition really is $10k and the extra $5k-$10k goes towards the families that barely pay tuition. So if someone pays more than $10k tuition, the rest goes towards those that pay less then $10K.
This is what the school explained to us.
Because you can afford the full $20K, it doesn't give you right to bash others that can't.
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imorethanamother




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Jul 16 2021, 1:16 pm
amother [ Birch ] wrote:
I’m not paying for it. Just printing the checks on my printer they received via email.

Ppl who work full time need Sunday’s for shopping, cooking, cleaning, organizing, appointments.

I take what @mommyg8 said earlier to heart.

I’ve worked away the years of my kids childhood.
I’ll never get those years back
I look at others who didn’t
I’m not convinced it was worth it.


I do my shopping early Sunday morning, and my cooking Sunday evening. That leaves me easily with six hours of family time.

As for the rest, maybe so. Or maybe your kids' childhood would have been spent with you telling them there was no money for clothes, or camp, or watching you call and ask for money from various relatives, or not getting a report card because your tuition wasn't paid and the tuition cut wasn't big enough. Maybe you would have been harried during all those hours at home, struggling with cooking and cleaning on much lower income.

My point is, you never know what was worth it or not. There's only you and your hishtadlus. Everything else is luck.

I'm a big fan of not looking back and having regrets. There's no point. There's only the here and now, and tonight is shabbos. You can cuddle your kids, you can read books with them, you can all pile into your bed and discuss their weeks and what their favorite part was. That's what I remember from my childhood from two very hard-working parents, and they're not bad memories. There's lots of ways to bond with your children and their childhood without staying home all day with each other.
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amother




DarkKhaki
 

Post Fri, Jul 16 2021, 1:20 pm
imorethanamother wrote:
Wow. Just...wow.

That's okay, the rest of us will just pick up the slack because you don't want to! I'm proud to pay full tuition, and I'm privileged and proud that Hashem has enabled me to do so. I was raised in a family where my mother davened that they should be zoche to pay full tuition, and they did. We didn't live luxuriously, we didn't take vacations, my parents knew what was important. They didn't do an investigation into the tuition breakdown, they acknowledged that part of it was to help others and they were glad to do it.


I'm so happy you're able to pay full tution! We don't take vacations. We don't live luxuriously. Literally the only way we could pay full tution is if I went back to the 14 hour days I worked while my husband was in school and let a babysitting group raise my child (I couldn't even afford a nanny with full hours and full tution and full taxes). Why should I work double the time for nothing? I'd rather see my children once in a while, especially since my husband isn't home like he used to be before. The school is very happy to have us pay what it actually costs to educate our children which is about half tution and understands we're not in a place to give more than that. I do give time to the school though.
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imorethanamother




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Jul 16 2021, 3:27 pm
amother [ DarkKhaki ] wrote:
I'm so happy you're able to pay full tution! We don't take vacations. We don't live luxuriously. Literally the only way we could pay full tution is if I went back to the 14 hour days I worked while my husband was in school and let a babysitting group raise my child (I couldn't even afford a nanny with full hours and full tution and full taxes). Why should I work double the time for nothing? I'd rather see my children once in a while, especially since my husband isn't home like he used to be before. The school is very happy to have us pay what it actually costs to educate our children which is about half tution and understands we're not in a place to give more than that. I do give time to the school though.


But that's not what you said in your post. You said that it doesn't make sense to earn more or make more, because your $10,000 per child is exactly what you think the school needs to educate your child, and giving them more is about helping other children and you don't want that.

I'm telling you it costs a fortune to educate your child. If everyone paid full tuition, they wouldn't need to FUNDRAISE as much, if at all. Someone is taking up your slack.

Now, if you're saying it's temporary and your husband is in school to make a bigger parnassah, totally understandable. But someone is filling in your gaps in all these years that it's happening. And it shouldn't mean that we all decide not to work because the message is that we shouldn't have to pay full tuition because others don't.

I understand why people are scared to leave government programs. But I was not raised this way, and the mindset baffles me.
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amother




Marigold
 

Post Fri, Jul 16 2021, 3:41 pm
imorethanamother wrote:
But that's not what you said in your post. You said that it doesn't make sense to earn more or make more, because your $10,000 per child is exactly what you think the school needs to educate your child, and giving them more is about helping other children and you don't want that.

I'm telling you it costs a fortune to educate your child. If everyone paid full tuition, they wouldn't need to FUNDRAISE as much, if at all. Someone is taking up your slack.

Now, if you're saying it's temporary and your husband is in school to make a bigger parnassah, totally understandable. But someone is filling in your gaps in all these years that it's happening. And it shouldn't mean that we all decide not to work because the message is that we shouldn't have to pay full tuition because others don't.

I understand why people are scared to leave government programs. But I was not raised this way, and the mindset baffles me.


Just because you have different priorities or were raised differently, it doesn't make you a better person. It costs $10K to educate a child. If I pay over 10K it goes towards a different child's tuition that the parents don't pay $10K. Why is it so hard to understand? Why should we struggle and kill ourselves to pay someone else's tuition?
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imorethanamother




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Jul 16 2021, 4:26 pm
amother [ Marigold ] wrote:
Just because you have different priorities or were raised differently, it doesn't make you a better person. It costs $10K to educate a child. If I pay over 10K it goes towards a different child's tuition that the parents don't pay $10K. Why is it so hard to understand? Why should we struggle and kill ourselves to pay someone else's tuition?


It doesn't cost $10,000 to educate your child.

I mean, it CAN. But you have to forgo good teachers and a decent building with heat and A/C and hot water, and live specifically in an area where the government chips in to your child's education. If you're willing to do that, go for it!

A good rule of thumb is to look at your local public school's spending per pupil. Our tuition is actually way lower than that, which just goes to show how much it really does cost. Your school isn't fundraising for the fun of it.

A principal once showed me the expenses of how much it would cost to open a new classroom in an already existing school. You would be shocked.

As a final word, my "different priorities" is that I work as hard as I can, or borrow money, to pay for my children's tuitions. Because that's money I owe. I'm not a better person than you, but this is the morally correct stance. Everyone struggles to pay tuition, I'm not sure why you shouldn't have to struggle but everyone else should.
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amother




Marigold
 

Post Fri, Jul 16 2021, 4:44 pm
imorethanamother wrote:
It doesn't cost $10,000 to educate your child.

I mean, it CAN. But you have to forgo good teachers and a decent building with heat and A/C and hot water, and live specifically in an area where the government chips in to your child's education. If you're willing to do that, go for it!

A good rule of thumb is to look at your local public school's spending per pupil. Our tuition is actually way lower than that, which just goes to show how much it really does cost. Your school isn't fundraising for the fun of it.

A principal once showed me the expenses of how much it would cost to open a new classroom in an already existing school. You would be shocked.

As a final word, my "different priorities" is that I work as hard as I can, or borrow money, to pay for my children's tuitions. Because that's money I owe. I'm not a better person than you, but this is the morally correct stance. Everyone struggles to pay tuition, I'm not sure why you shouldn't have to struggle but everyone else should.


This is what the school explained to me. This is how tuition works. With the government grants to school gets, it costs them less than $10K per child. You're not more morally correct for paying extra tuition that goes towards another child. Even the $10K is a struggle for many. If everyone actually pays the full $10K, then tuition wouldn't be $15-$20K. It's only that price because they need to cover for other students.
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amother




Pansy
 

Post Fri, Jul 16 2021, 4:59 pm
amother [ Birch ] wrote:
You don’t have more then those that earn less

Child tax credits
Child stimulus
Affordable housing with locked in taxes or HUD
Wic
Food stamps (which are now giving crazy amounts)
Free cell phone
Free health insurance (including glasses for kids) (that alone costs me 12,000 a year + copays + meds)
HEAP to help with gas bill in winter
Day camp assistance
Tuition deduction

I Work more then 40 hrs a week. Live with stress. Balancing kids and life. See 30% of my income disappear to the government. To watch ppl who work 20 hrs a week and spend lots of leisure time with their kids making 20,000 + in child tax rebates.
I feel so stupid.

There are people who earn less that don't get any of those either.
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Optione




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Jul 16 2021, 5:53 pm
amother [ Denim ] wrote:

I'll have another kid's tuition to pay. And the school will see the extra 30k I'm making and charge me more for my other kids.


I don't know that it's that black and white. Every situation is different so I'll give you a different perspective: 2 years ago my husband got a $25,000 pay increase bH. Our tuition for 3 children went up a total of $3,000 for that year. This year it's up $4,200 from 2 years ago ($1,200 from the year before) which we said we could pay.
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SafeAtLast




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Jul 16 2021, 5:58 pm
Optione wrote:
I don't know that it's that black and white. Every situation is different so I'll give you a different perspective: 2 years ago my husband got a $25,000 pay increase bH. Our tuition for 3 children went up a total of $3,000 for that year. This year it's up $4,200 from 2 years ago ($1,200 from the year before) which we said we could pay.


Why does the school know how much you are earning or that you got a raise?

Am I missing something?
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Optione




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Jul 16 2021, 6:05 pm
SafeAtLast wrote:
Why does the school know how much you are earning or that you got a raise?

Am I missing something?

We complete the FACTS forms for the scholarship committee since we’re asking for a tuition break. It's a vetting process; we submit our W2s, etc.

Also, I'm the one who told them that he got a pay increase so we now can pay a little more.

(He got the pay increase after we submitted the previous year's forms, so technically we didn't have to tell them for that first year.)
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amother




Dodgerblue
 

Post Fri, Jul 16 2021, 6:48 pm
I was working in a low paying job for many years as I was trying to break into my field. We barely lived paycheck to paycheck. We made just above the amount to qualify for anything but had no way of lowering outr income.
Both my husband and I work 2 jobs. We made a bit over 250k last yr. We live in a wealthy area and are considered on the poor end. We are always working and exhausted. But we can pay our bills. We are very tight and save very little. Sadly we still need to ask for scholarship as we don't have 70k.

When I worked at the lower paying jobs, I worked some years part time and I took time off after having a baby. Now that our kids are getting older, expenses are through the roof. We made many poor choices early on in our marriage that we regret. I do not regret the years I had with my older children. I feel my younger children get a very tired, burnt out mom. My husband is always tired and our marriage is strained from lack of time doing "fun" things or having time.
Every time a new program or benefit or scholarship comes out, we don't meet the criteria. We needed to take out more for taxes in order not to owe. It's kind of a toss up. On one hand I don't have to be ashamed and tell the class mom I can't afford the Morah chip in. On the other hand we work to the point that we really struggle enjoying our lives.
I guess we keep saying it will all make sense once the kids are out of school. But yeh middle class is awful.
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amother




Outerspace
 

Post Fri, Jul 16 2021, 7:08 pm
amother [ Birch ] wrote:
30% is normal. (Besides all healthcare deductions).

Plus I got a lot of extra money this year that pushed us over some thresholds. Both were a long time coming. The company was sold. I had earned stocks in the company and a one time bonus for extra work. I was so excited with all the things I was going to do with the cash. By the time I got my part there was barely anything there. I wanted to cry. I had waited years for both and the government took almost half!!! For this I kill myself?
And then my neighbor tells me how she woke up to $1500 cash in her bank account…


(For all this talking tuition we live really super frugal so we can afford tuition. It is very important to me. I think some of you would be shocked to see the size home someone making 200k a6nd living responsibly lives in)


Were making about 170k with a young family of four kids. Yes still in a small house in need of repairs. The thing is I dont assume 170k means I should be in a bigger place. I am working hard to grow our income so that iyh one day well get there. Saving for retirement and plugging away at my mortgage in order to one day sell and own a bigger home. It takes patience and perseverance but nothing is built in a day. Iyh you too will get there.

Btw bonuses are taxed at a higher rate something like 45% but at the end of the year when you file taxes they true it up as part of your income so you should get it back (or if you usually owe, you'll owe less). But yea bonuses are so annoying. My husband's 10k bonus comes out to really like 6.7k.
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amother




Forestgreen
 

Post Fri, Jul 16 2021, 7:20 pm
amother [ Junglegreen ] wrote:
I always said this, that middle class have it the hardest. They don't get any government help and less breaks.

That said I always worked full time for a few reasons.
--my ego. I don't want to be on government programs.
--It feels good to be able to pay tuition and be able to afford my kids education. I know the schools are drowning themselves.
--I work in an industry that it's hard to find part time work, and it's constantly changing, so I need to work or will fall behind.
--Each year of experience gives me potential for a higher salary. I'm making almost triple now what I made when I first started working 20 years ago
--At some point I won't be paying tuition. At that point I will be earning and keeping my salary. I'd like to be able to make my kids chasunas without going into debt. I'd like to be able to help my kids get on their own two feet.


I agree with this....families on programs, how will they pay for weddings? for private jewish college or trade school? etc theres no government assistance for that(yes, fafsa, but still doesnt cover everything)

in the long run, you hope your salary will increase and yrs later, youll be in a better place especially when your kids are out of school...I think this is beter than starting from "scratch" later on...

diapers/formula/toilet paper/clothes etc is not covered I just dont get where these things, where do they have money from if they are making so little?

but, I see these families making weddings /going to private jewish colleges or expensive seminary etc so maybe theres a secret I dont know, but nobody is supporting me...I must work...
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amother




Bronze
 

Post Sat, Jul 17 2021, 10:50 pm
amother [ Birch ] wrote:
30% is normal. (Besides all healthcare deductions).

Plus I got a lot of extra money this year that pushed us over some thresholds. Both were a long time coming. The company was sold. I had earned stocks in the company and a one time bonus for extra work. I was so excited with all the things I was going to do with the cash. By the time I got my part there was barely anything there. I wanted to cry. I had waited years for both and the government took almost half!!! For this I kill myself?
And then my neighbor tells me how she woke up to $1500 cash in her bank account…


(For all this talking tuition we live really super frugal so we can afford tuition. It is very important to me. I think some of you would be shocked to see the size home someone making 200k and living responsibly lives in)


The size of someone's house has nothing to do with how much they make. For example, I built my house years ago before my area went up. (Like first frum person in entire areà,no eruv, no formal shul) If you would buy my house today, you will be spending more than double what I spent.
There are people who assume I paid more for my house.
I disagree that anybody knows how much money anybody's making based on their house. I actually work in the mortgage field, and see the houses people buy every day. You never know how people afford their houses, or what reasons people live in specific houses.
Btw in regard to tuition, I pay full tuition for most of my schools as well. However, one of my kids is in a more specialized School who has very high tuition and I do get a break on that school. I still pay more for his tuition than I pay for my other kids though. (I pay about 40k a year on 3 kids tuition for prospective)
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ora_43




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Jul 18 2021, 7:17 am
But again with thinking long-term... If we're talking about the balance between earning money and spending time with your kids, it's not just how much you earn, it's how long it takes to earn it.

I know three women who all earn around 6,000 shekels/month. One earns it by working almost full-time as a cashier, on her feet most of the day. One works around 20 hours a week as a freelancer. And one does a few hours of consulting 1-2 times a month.

OK the last case is extreme... point is, again, think about the future. Whether you can increase hourly earnings, or whether part-time is even an option, varies wildly by industry. But do keep it in mind and look carefully at your industry. Because sometimes taking a 40 hr/week job now will put you in a position to be making that same money in 25 hrs/week in another few years.
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