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Emunah and bitachon regarding family size
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amother




Hibiscus
 

Post Mon, Jul 26 2021, 11:26 pm
amother [ Arcticblue ] wrote:
I agree with everything you said.

There's a brand of Judaism that teaches that posters way of thinking. That is that everything that happens would have happened regardless of human intervention. So a person who makes 500k a year as a doctor believes she'd have the same money even if she was a preschool assistant. And a secretary making 25k believes she'd be in the same financial predicament even if she'd be a hotshot lawyer billing $1000 an hour.

I think this is taught so that people don't question or have regrets. It's peaceful and simple to believe that none of the decisions or routes we take in life make a difference anyway. And this would carry on to family size. They believe that 5 children or 15 children doesn't impact the family finances as hashem gives what they were supposed to have anyway.


That brand of judaism is AKA a mishna in meseches kiddushin:

רבי מאיר אומר: לעולם ילמד אדם את בנו אומנות נקיה (וקלה), ויתפלל למי שהעושר והנכסים שלו, שאין אומנות שאין בה עניות ועשירות, שלא עניות מן האומנות ולא עשירות מן האומנות, אלא הכל לפי זכותו

It doesn’t mean the lawyer billing 1k an hour will be impoverished. It means that the person going into law with the aim of being that lawyer who bills 1k an hour could just as easily end up underemployed and buried under student loans etc. (or child support and alimony payments) if that is his lot in life.
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amother




Periwinkle
 

Post Tue, Jul 27 2021, 12:00 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:
Again, my question was not to you. I was specifically asking that ther anonymous poster who said it was from the shulchan aruch. I want to know where, if she is so sure that that is a source.

Also, I have no idea who the rabbi is wo you mentioned. I am not in the american charedi world.


Rabbi Fuerst is a very well-known Rav. He’s the Dayan of Chicago, on the Bais Din, part of the Agudah, and learned directly from Reb Moshe Feinstein and received smicha from him. He can quote you line and verse and page number and which version of which sefer (per reprinting) that you can find a source. His phone rings off the hook day and night, and he gets constant phone calls from other Rabbaim all around the world. In his shiurim, he often discusses conversations he had with notable Rabbaim such as R’ Shlomo Zalman.

He’s also given me a heter for birth control even before I had any children, but not for financial reasons, but medical ones. When I had trouble having children and lived far away, he told me to mail him my bedikas because he was worried other Rabbaim would be too machmir. He’s a gadol.
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Batsheva1




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Jul 27 2021, 12:02 am
amother [ Catmint ] wrote:
Straight halacha. But you can discuss your particular situation with a rav and he will help you pasken for your situation.
No that is not halacha. The technical halacha is one boy and one girl. And to answer op's question I don't think she's lacking emunah and bitachon. She is being responsible. There is no mitzvah to be dependent on tzedaka, in fact, lehefech.
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tp3




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Jul 27 2021, 5:34 am
amother [ Arcticblue ] wrote:
I agree with everything you said.

There's a brand of Judaism that teaches that posters way of thinking. That is that everything that happens would have happened regardless of human intervention. So a person who makes 500k a year as a doctor believes she'd have the same money even if she was a preschool assistant. And a secretary making 25k believes she'd be in the same financial predicament even if she'd be a hotshot lawyer billing $1000 an hour.

This is not a brand of Judaism. This is Judaism full stop.
If you learn Shaar Habitachon of the Chovos Halevavos, it explains this very clearly. It is a basic, integral part of ahavas Hashem and yiras Hashem.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Jul 27 2021, 5:47 am
amother [ Periwinkle ] wrote:
Rabbi Fuerst is a very well-known Rav. He’s the Dayan of Chicago, on the Bais Din, part of the Agudah, and learned directly from Reb Moshe Feinstein and received smicha from him. He can quote you line and verse and page number and which version of which sefer (per reprinting) that you can find a source. His phone rings off the hook day and night, and he gets constant phone calls from other Rabbaim all around the world. In his shiurim, he often discusses conversations he had with notable Rabbaim such as R’ Shlomo Zalman.

He’s also given me a heter for birth control even before I had any children, but not for financial reasons, but medical ones. When I had trouble having children and lived far away, he told me to mail him my bedikas because he was worried other Rabbaim would be too machmir. He’s a gadol.
And again, my point was not that I needed to be told who this rabbi is.
My point was that someone mentioned the shulchan aruch as a source for not getting a heter for BC for financial reasons. I asked if that poster could be more spcific and she has not returned.
I was not looking for rabbanim who say this. I wanted the source so that I could go look it up.
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amother




Arcticblue
 

Post Tue, Jul 27 2021, 6:47 am
amother [ Hibiscus ] wrote:
That brand of judaism is AKA a mishna in meseches kiddushin:

רבי מאיר אומר: לעולם ילמד אדם את בנו אומנות נקיה (וקלה), ויתפלל למי שהעושר והנכסים שלו, שאין אומנות שאין בה עניות ועשירות, שלא עניות מן האומנות ולא עשירות מן האומנות, אלא הכל לפי זכותו

It doesn’t mean the lawyer billing 1k an hour will be impoverished. It means that the person going into law with the aim of being that lawyer who bills 1k an hour could just as easily end up underemployed and buried under student loans etc. (or child support and alimony payments) if that is his lot in life.



And this is an example of an "but it says so" vs. "But we don't actually see it" debate. I suppose if I tell you that we see bigshot lawyers who make 500k+ living much more comfortably than those making 30k, you'd say that this is what hashem wanted and even if the 30k person would somehow start making millions, she'd still struggle because that is what hashem wants. Of course you can't prove this is actually happening, you can only say "it says so".

If we truly believed this, none of our decisions should be motivated by money. We shouldn't advise our children to choose professional that pay well. After all, it makes no difference. We shouldn't go out of our way to save money, after all, it's all predetermined what we'll have anyway. We shouldn't even go out of our way to buy things on sale since nothing will change our financial matzev anyway. I would really love to go to eretz yisroel for pesach next year purely l'shem shamayim. The issue is it would cost a small fortune to take my family there. Again, this shouldn't be a consideration. So many of us ask yeshivos for tuition breaks. Why hold back money from rebbaim and morahs? Just pay the full amount. You don't believe hashem can reimburse you? Ultimately we all accept that hashem runs the world according to teva .


I'd just reiterate my last example. Anyone who truly believes that hashem took teva out of parnassah should never hold back tuition from a yeshiva. It makes no sense to say that you believe that parnassah is determined in a way that we don't have control over, and that hashem will provide an exact precise amount regardless of our efforts, yet we also claim that we can't pay full tuition.
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amother




Sage
 

Post Tue, Jul 27 2021, 7:40 am
I have not read the replies in this thread but Hashem can give and take at any time a wealthy person can think hell live well forever but he is not in charge.
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amother




Hibiscus
 

Post Tue, Jul 27 2021, 7:57 am
amother [ Arcticblue ] wrote:
And this is an example of an "but it says so" vs. "But we don't actually see it" debate. I suppose if I tell you that we see bigshot lawyers who make 500k+ living much more comfortably than those making 30k, you'd say that this is what hashem wanted and even if the 30k person would somehow start making millions, she'd still struggle because that is what hashem wants. Of course you can't prove this is actually happening, you can only say "it says so".

If we truly believed this, none of our decisions should be motivated by money. We shouldn't advise our children to choose professional that pay well. After all, it makes no difference. We shouldn't go out of our way to save money, after all, it's all predetermined what we'll have anyway. We shouldn't even go out of our way to buy things on sale since nothing will change our financial matzev anyway. I would really love to go to eretz yisroel for pesach next year purely l'shem shamayim. The issue is it would cost a small fortune to take my family there. Again, this shouldn't be a consideration. So many of us ask yeshivos for tuition breaks. Why hold back money from rebbaim and morahs? Just pay the full amount. You don't believe hashem can reimburse you? Ultimately we all accept that hashem runs the world according to teva .


I'd just reiterate my last example. Anyone who truly believes that hashem took teva out of parnassah should never hold back tuition from a yeshiva. It makes no sense to say that you believe that parnassah is determined in a way that we don't have control over, and that hashem will provide an exact precise amount regardless of our efforts, yet we also claim that we can't pay full tuition.


That is the most prominent subject of the chovos halevavos shaar habitachon, one of the most well known and influential pieces of Jewish thought. It’s a fascinating read. The bottom line is that people are supposed to make only reasonable hishtadlus but not all people are created equal. One is supposed to gravitate towards his talents, skills, and the work that one likes and rely on Hashem to provide. It doesn’t mean that everyone who loves teaching can sign up for a 20k a year job and expect to make ends meet. That may not be a proper level of hishtadlus on their level. On the other end of the spectrum working 80 hour weeks and sleeping in the office is likely excessive hishtadlus for most. That does interplay with teva and the fact that one person with a innate skill to be a neurosurgeon may be destined to earn more than one that loves accounting, although there will be exceptions in each profession. Also, depending on ones level of Bitachon ones level of required hishtadlus varies.

(Hashem may also at times take an individual who has lost the concept of bitachon and is beyond hope in this area and link that individual’s hishtadlus with results to create the illusion that effort directly equals results to perpetuate bechira. In effect, that person has failed to see the yad Hashem and has now become the bait to tempt others.)


But it’s not just chovos halevavos. Don’t forget this weeks parsha:
יב}פֶּן־תֹּאכַ֖ל וְשָׂבָ֑עְתָּ וּבָתִּ֥ים טוֹבִ֛ים תִּבְנֶ֖ה וְיָשָֽׁבְתָּ׃

{יג}וּבְקָֽרְךָ֤ וְצֹֽאנְךָ֙ יִרְבְּיֻ֔ן וְכֶ֥סֶף וְזָהָ֖ב יִרְבֶּה־לָּ֑ךְ וְכֹ֥ל אֲשֶׁר־לְךָ֖ יִרְבֶּֽה׃

{יד}וְרָ֖ם לְבָבֶ֑ךָ וְשָֽׁכַחְתָּ֙ אֶת־יְהוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֶ֔יךָ הַמּוֹצִיאֲךָ֛ מֵאֶ֥רֶץ מִצְרַ֖יִם מִבֵּ֥ית עֲבָדִֽים׃

{טו}הַמּוֹלִ֨יכֲךָ֜ בַּמִּדְבָּ֣ר ׀ הַגָּדֹ֣ל וְהַנּוֹרָ֗א נָחָ֤שׁ ׀ שָׂרָף֙ וְעַקְרָ֔ב וְצִמָּא֖וֹן אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֵֽין־מָ֑יִם הַמּוֹצִ֤יא לְךָ֙ מַ֔יִם מִצּ֖וּר הַֽחַלָּמִֽישׁ׃

{טז}הַמַּֽאֲכִ֨לְךָ֥ מָן֙ בַּמִּדְבָּ֔ר אֲשֶׁ֥ר לֹא־יָדְע֖וּן אֲבֹתֶ֑יךָ לְמַ֣עַן עַנֹּֽתְךָ֗ וּלְמַ֙עַן֙ נַסֹּתֶ֔ךָ לְהֵיטִֽבְךָ֖ בְּאַחֲרִיתֶֽךָ׃

{יז}וְאָמַרְתָּ֖ בִּלְבָבֶ֑ךָ כֹּחִי֙ וְעֹ֣צֶם יָדִ֔י עָ֥שָׂה לִ֖י אֶת־הַחַ֥יִל הַזֶּֽה׃

{יח}וְזָֽכַרְתָּ֙ אֶת־יְהוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֶ֔יךָ כִּ֣י ה֗וּא הַנֹּתֵ֥ן לְךָ֛ כֹּ֖חַ לַעֲשׂ֣וֹת חָ֑יִל
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imaima




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Jul 27 2021, 8:06 am
amother [ Moonstone ] wrote:
Somebody just approached my husband this week for money for a family with 20 children.

Hello, there's a reason why most of us don't have 20 children, if we can't sponsor our own, why should I sponsor others?

He gave him money either way, DH is a nice person.


Of course. The 20 children are already there, whether we like it or not.
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amother




Moccasin
 

Post Tue, Jul 27 2021, 8:16 am
amother [ Nemesia ] wrote:
While you will probably not get a heter to use BC due to financial concerns, the question can be framed differently and you would get a heter. Talk more about the shalom bayis issues that occur from the stress of two parents working or working longer hours or something like that. If that's the case of course.

In my case, my DH had a mental disorder and I received a heter for BC because I was single-handedly supporting my family and it was hard. Every situation is different.

As for emunah, let's get this straight once and for all. EMUNAH MEANS YOU ACCEPT G-Ds WILL, you accept that whatever happens is from Hashem, not that you think somehow all your wishes will come true. It's living life a day at a time, with a smile and joy in your heart, knowing that Hashem is taking care of you. And that even if He gives you a challenge, He will give you the strength to handle it and then you will become stronger because of it.


This

I had theee miscarriages before corona. I was suffering greatly. Interestingly, our rav told us to wait for a while and not try for another baby yet (didn't ask him that!! just shared plus had a medical shaila).

When my country locked down and I was home with kids all day, working my job at night, I could see how Hashem had this plan for me. I wouldn't have been able to guide and care for my kids through home-schooling the same way with a baby. It was hard enough for me and I could see how much more my friends with babies were struggling.

I know *I* wouldn't have been able to handle it and Hashem knew it too, I guess.

Now that we have been through 2 seasons of lockdown ans my kids are more independent, I am at least *feeling* confident that I will be able to handle my life. Of course we don't know what happens next, but at least I am expecting now and don't have anxiety about home-schooling yet.
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amother




Moccasin
 

Post Tue, Jul 27 2021, 8:18 am
amother [ Nemesia ] wrote:
Oh, come on. I'm not saying there is no other possible tafkid for a women. Childless women have fantastic tafkidim. Sarah Schenirer and Rebitzen David are amazing examples. Women can achieve greatness in many many ways. I was just pointing out that when a women is able to have children, that is likely her main tafkid, so she shouldn't leave it on the table.

sorry if my choice of words was offensive, I didn't intend it to be


I feel similarly. I am fertile and also have many talents. However I do feel I am better at mothering my kids than I am at most of the things I am good at.

So while I could contribute in many fields, my contribution into mothering would be the most valuable part.
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amother




Arcticblue
 

Post Tue, Jul 27 2021, 9:26 am
amother [ Moccasin ] wrote:
This

I had theee miscarriages before corona. I was suffering greatly. Interestingly, our rav told us to wait for a while and not try for another baby yet (didn't ask him that!! just shared plus had a medical shaila).

When my country locked down and I was home with kids all day, working my job at night, I could see how Hashem had this plan for me. I wouldn't have been able to guide and care for my kids through home-schooling the same way with a baby. It was hard enough for me and I could see how much more my friends with babies were struggling.

I know *I* wouldn't have been able to handle it and Hashem knew it too, I guess.

Now that we have been through 2 seasons of lockdown ans my kids are more independent, I am at least *feeling* confident that I will be able to handle my life. Of course we don't know what happens next, but at least I am expecting now and don't have anxiety about home-schooling yet.



What bothers me about this story is that you are attempting to make "sense" out of hashem and how he runs the world. You were advised to wait, and it turned out beautifully. See, hashem knows what he is doing. The problem is that this completely ignores the thousands of families that had babies right before Covid and were left completely overwhelmed. What about them? My feeling is that if we are going to make sense out of hashem then we have to make sense out of everything and that's obviously impossible. That leaves me with Hashem is melech and always good but we don't understand his cheshbon.
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amother




Tangerine
 

Post Tue, Jul 27 2021, 9:57 am
amother [ Moccasin ] wrote:
I feel similarly. I am fertile and also have many talents. However I do feel I am better at mothering my kids than I am at most of the things I am good at.

So while I could contribute in many fields, my contribution into mothering would be the most valuable part.

I struggled a lot with raising my kids because my talents and academic nature were always pulling me in a different direction. And, no, I was not able to do both. I am a grandma now and am truly thankful that I gave my best years to my children. They and my grandchildren are the pride and joy of my life.
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PinkFridge




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Jul 27 2021, 10:18 am
amother [ Arcticblue ] wrote:
What bothers me about this story is that you are attempting to make "sense" out of hashem and how he runs the world. You were advised to wait, and it turned out beautifully. See, hashem knows what he is doing. The problem is that this completely ignores the thousands of families that had babies right before Covid and were left completely overwhelmed. What about them? My feeling is that if we are going to make sense out of hashem then we have to make sense out of everything and that's obviously impossible. That leaves me with Hashem is melech and always good but we don't understand his cheshbon.


We all have to listen to our own messages, and be grateful when we see the hashgacha in our own lives.
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amother




Moccasin
 

Post Tue, Jul 27 2021, 10:32 am
amother [ Arcticblue ] wrote:
What bothers me about this story is that you are attempting to make "sense" out of hashem and how he runs the world. You were advised to wait, and it turned out beautifully. See, hashem knows what he is doing. The problem is that this completely ignores the thousands of families that had babies right before Covid and were left completely overwhelmed. What about them? My feeling is that if we are going to make sense out of hashem then we have to make sense out of everything and that's obviously impossible. That leaves me with Hashem is melech and always good but we don't understand his cheshbon.


I am not saying that what rabbi said was right, my last mc was RIGHT before corona so it wasn't the psak that played a role, it was the fact that the pregnancy didn't happen.

I am sure all the families with babies could see the beauty in having their babies despite living through corona. None of them complained how badly timed their babies turned out.

The problem with your answer and many other answers in the thread is that you want to stretch individual beliefs on everyone's outcomes. But emunah is very personal.

As I said, I was not able to handle a baby, but maybe other people could! So having a baby for them was not as bad as it would have been for me. Difficult yes, for everyone, but not undoable.

Every global issue has an impact on individuals, and that impact is rarely universal.
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PinkFridge




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Jul 27 2021, 10:34 am
And amother arcticblue, survivors' guilt doesn't do anyone any good.
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amother




OP
 

Post Tue, Jul 27 2021, 10:57 am
amother [ Nemesia ] wrote:
Good luck on the decision, OP, and may Hashem bless you with abundance so you can raise your family beautifully.


Amen amen amen!!! Same to all of you!!
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amother




DarkKhaki
 

Post Tue, Jul 27 2021, 1:44 pm
I didn't read all responses but I read some of the rebbes article
I find it very hard and painful to read, I felt like the rebbe had a very simplistic view on having children and that it is not such a difficult thing to do
I come from a family of 15
Physically emotionally abused, grew up in poverty and always felt like like a HUGE burden to my parents especially my mother
Most of my siblings are really suffering from childhood trauma and having a very hard time having their own kids and expanding their families bc they feel "done" (since we helped so so much at home)
Maybe I didn't read it properly but I can't imagine the correct thing would be for us to have so many children
I personally having 4th iyh and I am so young but can't imagine having more.
I can't be forced to have more , I really can't understand how that works

Would love insight and clarity
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amother




OP
 

Post Tue, Jul 27 2021, 2:25 pm
nicetoknow wrote:
OP, here's a link to a recently published article from a few months back on the Lubavitcher Rebbe's discussions on this your question. https://derher.org/wp-content/.....g.pdf

It's in English. I struggle with this question a lot and found comfort in reading it.


Thanks, I skimmed through it, but I'm not lubavich.
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imorethanamother




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Jul 27 2021, 8:20 pm
amother [ DarkKhaki ] wrote:
I didn't read all responses but I read some of the rebbes article
I find it very hard and painful to read, I felt like the rebbe had a very simplistic view on having children and that it is not such a difficult thing to do
I come from a family of 15
Physically emotionally abused, grew up in poverty and always felt like like a HUGE burden to my parents especially my mother
Most of my siblings are really suffering from childhood trauma and having a very hard time having their own kids and expanding their families bc they feel "done" (since we helped so so much at home)
Maybe I didn't read it properly but I can't imagine the correct thing would be for us to have so many children
I personally having 4th iyh and I am so young but can't imagine having more.
I can't be forced to have more , I really can't understand how that works

Would love insight and clarity


The Rebbe - in person - always judged the individual on their own merits and always gave incredible advice. The article discussed a general point of view. The point of view is that people shouldn't limit their families because the ideal is a larger family.

Obviously, your family was suffering with extraordinary challenges. Had someone asked the Rebbe, I'm sure his answer would have been tailored to you personally.

I wish I had had a larger family. Some of the time I couldn't because of medical reasons, but at times I'm sure I didn't have the emunah I needed, and that's my fault. I agree with the premise of a large family in theory, but in reality a Rav will work with you and your family to ensure success.
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