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Emunah and bitachon regarding family size
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amother
Tiffanyblue


 

Post Mon, Jul 26 2021, 8:51 am
amother [ Arcticblue ] wrote:
What's your point?

So since it worked out for you do you believe that across the board hashem magically extends families finances when they have more children because after all, it happened to you?

Isn't this a very shallow and illogical way of thinking? What would you say to all the growing families that are suffering financially???

No point. We still don't have any money and we still don't know how we will pay our bills. Just think it's funny that someone said this and it actually happened to me. That's all.

I think having bitachon that hashem will take care of us is not shallow and illogical, it's wonderful. This comment really cheered me up Smile

(BTW, there are way more families that are managing financially than not. No reason to point to the few that are not managing when you can point to the vast majority that are.)
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amother
Indigo


 

Post Mon, Jul 26 2021, 9:01 am
amother [ Catmint ] wrote:
It's asur to do family planning because of finances. You need a heter from a rav. Dh probably can't know. And yes it is a lack of emunah and bitcahon. No one is perfect in every area.


The woman doesn't need the heter, because she has no chiyuv in peru urevu.
DH is the one that needs it.

As a matter of fact, DH's rav will told me to tell DH to call him when I called, I called because I thought I could explain better, but to actually give the heter he spoke to DH directly. The heter is for him, not me.
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hello3




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 26 2021, 9:05 am
Accept that it says somewhere (need to find out exact source) that a baby is born with פתו בידו. Which means that any baby that’s born, they already have the bread that they will need. How exactly does that work? I’m not sure. But I believe that if a child is meant to be born, it will be born regardless of birth control. Ultimately hashem runs the world and if a kid will need to live through poverty he will and vice versa. A person who is rich and has kids based on that, can lose his money. And a person who is poor can make money. I don’t think it is ours to make these cheshbonos. I think a couple needs to think if they can handle another child as a whole and not base their decision only on one aspect of life that can change at any given time. And for that we have rabbonim that can help you navigate through it.
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amother
Catmint


 

Post Mon, Jul 26 2021, 9:12 am
amother [ Indigo ] wrote:
The woman doesn't need the heter, because she has no chiyuv in peru urevu.
DH is the one that needs it.

As a matter of fact, DH's rav will told me to tell DH to call him when I called, I called because I thought I could explain better, but to actually give the heter he spoke to DH directly. The heter is for him, not me.


Yes. This is true. If dh will know about it then a rav need to be consulted.
Otherwise you can lie to dh and pretend you are experiencing infertility.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 26 2021, 9:22 am
amother [ Catmint ] wrote:
It's asur to do family planning because of finances. You need a heter from a rav. Dh probably can't know. And yes it is a lack of emunah and bitcahon. No one is perfect in every area.
Source please?
Maybe its assur according to YOUR rav, but it is not a lack of emunah and bitachon. Not everyone's parnasa grows with each kid.
And many have learned that there is no need for such a heter.
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amother
Catmint


 

Post Mon, Jul 26 2021, 9:22 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:
Source please?
Maybe its assur according to YOUR rav, but it is not a lack of emunah and bitachon. Not everyone's parnasa grows with each kid.
And many have learned that there is no need for such a heter.


Give me the name of one rav who says what you claim.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 26 2021, 9:24 am
amother [ Catmint ] wrote:
Yes. This is true. If dh will know about it then a rav need to be consulted.
Otherwise you can lie to dh and pretend you are experiencing infertility.
Oh sure. That sounds like a great idea, hide from your spouse that you are taking birth control. That cant backfire at all. 🤦‍♀️
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 26 2021, 9:25 am
amother [ Catmint ] wrote:
Give me the name of one rav who says what you claim.
Im sorry, are you kidding me?
And I asked you for a source for what you are saying, not the name of a rav who says it.
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amother
Catmint


 

Post Mon, Jul 26 2021, 9:28 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:
Im sorry, are you kidding me?
And I asked you for a source for what you are saying, not the name of a rav who says it.


Source is Shulchan Aruch.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 26 2021, 9:29 am
amother [ Catmint ] wrote:
Source is Shulchan Aruch.
Can you be a bit more specofic so I can go look it up?
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amother
Khaki


 

Post Mon, Jul 26 2021, 9:30 am
amother [ Taupe ] wrote:
op I think this is a question for a high level rav who understands about anxiety/financial struggles etc ....you can tell him all your details to let him tell you about bitachon and the right thoughts/actions here....maybe rabbi yy jacobson or...


The thing about going to a high level rav vs. a community rav is that that rav might not be as accessible for followup or IRL support.
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amother
Burntblack


 

Post Mon, Jul 26 2021, 9:34 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
We bh have five children. We live paycheck to paycheck. Expenses keep going up as the kids get older. Am I lacking in bitachon, if I don't want more children because I am worried about being able to afford them?


It says in the Torah that there is parnassa for each child so yes it’s a lack.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 26 2021, 9:36 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:
Source please?
Maybe its assur according to YOUR rav, but it is not a lack of emunah and bitachon. Not everyone's parnasa grows with each kid.
And many have learned that there is no need for such a heter.

I heard Rabbi Feurst from Chicago say this in an interview. He said no litvish posek will give a heter for financial reasons.

ETA because I know I'm going to get hugged - I'm just repeating what I heard. You are welcome to call your Rav to clarify.
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amother
Orange


 

Post Mon, Jul 26 2021, 9:42 am
amother [ Burntblack ] wrote:
It says in the Torah that there is parnassa for each child so yes it’s a lack.


No there isn't.

How many children have died of malnourishment since the world was created?

Pretty quotes are nice to the ears, but when you open your eyes to the world, you see a different reality.


Last edited by amother on Tue, Dec 21 2021, 4:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Arcticblue


 

Post Mon, Jul 26 2021, 9:45 am
SafeAtLast wrote:
No there isn't.

How many children have died of malnourishment since the world was created?

Pretty quotes are nice to the ears, but when you open your eyes to the world, you see a different reality.



This is an impossible debate that I've seen many times here.

1 side says "but it says ABC". The other side says but open your eyes, it's not reality....but is says so....but it's not reality....and round and round we go.
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amother
Stoneblue


 

Post Mon, Jul 26 2021, 9:47 am
I recently heard a story that one can learn to do the proper hishtadlus and Hashem just sends what we need.

There was a house for sale in a growing Jewish community , there was a kollel yingerman that gave in a bid much lower than the asking price. His broker asks him, are u off the moon? This house wont sell under another 200k. This person was like im doing my hishtadlus and ill leave everything up to Hashem. Lots of people gave in a bid for that house.

A few weeks later this kollel yingermans broker calls him that his offer was accepted. And he was like how in the world did this happen? The seller of the house tells him that hes going thru divorce now and court said that he must sell the house and the $ is gonna go the his ex wife. So he decided to accept the lowest bid so his ex wife wont get too much profit.

Emunah peshita of this person.
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amother
Khaki


 

Post Mon, Jul 26 2021, 9:50 am
amother [ Burntblack ] wrote:
It says in the Torah that there is parnassa for each child so yes it’s a lack.


What is the exact source?
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amother
Tiffanyblue


 

Post Mon, Jul 26 2021, 9:54 am
amother [ Taupe ] wrote:
ppl always say this, but this didnt work for my parents...I grew up in poverty..large famiky...my parents couldnt afford things...

also, there are many ppl with large families asking for tzedaka through kupat hair or esras yisroel....I have nothing against these families but why didnt they get this bracha??why didnt my parents have this bracha?

I know quite a few families with only two or three kids who were really struggling financially. It's not necessarily related to how many children you have.

Anyways, tzedakah is not the end of the world. Hashem guarantees that there will always be poor people so there needs to be someone to get our maaser Smile.

Also, in the US today (where I live) you're sometimes better off with less money .... not a value judgment, just a fact.
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amother
Tiffanyblue


 

Post Mon, Jul 26 2021, 9:57 am
SafeAtLast wrote:
No there isn't.

How many children have died of malnourishment since the world was created?

Pretty quotes are nice to the ears, but when you open your eyes to the world, you see a different reality.

If you will look into this (I did) you will see that most of the time these famines are man made. IOW, the food is there, just it's not being distributed. Because of corrupt governments, because of man made wars....
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 26 2021, 10:02 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
I heard Rabbi Feurst from Chicago say this in an interview. He said no litvish posek will give a heter for financial reasons.

ETA because I know I'm going to get hugged - I'm just repeating what I heard. You are welcome to call your Rav to clarify.
Not giving a heter for xyz reasons is different than not needing a heter for xyz reasons.
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