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shabbatiscoming
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 Mon, Jul 26 2021, 10:03 am
| amother [ Burntblack ] wrote: | | It says in the Torah that there is parnassa for each child so yes it’s a lack. | Where in the Torah does it say that?
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southernbubby
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Mon, Jul 26 2021, 10:16 am
| amother [ Taupe ] wrote: | ppl always say this, but this didnt work for my parents...I grew up in poverty..large famiky...my parents couldnt afford things...
also, there are many ppl with large families asking for tzedaka through kupat hair or esras yisroel....I have nothing against these families but why didnt they get this bracha??why didnt my parents have this bracha? |
That's one way that Hashem provides and we don't tell the recipients to stop having babies.
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southernbubby
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Mon, Jul 26 2021, 10:22 am
| amother [ Tiffanyblue ] wrote: | | If you will look into this (I did) you will see that most of the time these famines are man made. IOW, the food is there, just it's not being distributed. Because of corrupt governments, because of man made wars.... |
If there is a famine then people are usually forced to give up having more children. People today waste plenty of everything.
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amother
Hibiscus
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Mon, Jul 26 2021, 10:34 am
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Rav Gershon Ribner says something really scary. He says that one cannot escape fate. If one marries rich to force providence’s hand to escape poverty, he or she will face medical, developmental, or other challenges with his or her spouse or children exactly equivalent to the poverty he or she escaped. The same goes for limiting children.
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mig100
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Mon, Jul 26 2021, 10:35 am
| Mommyg8 wrote: | I heard Rabbi Feurst from Chicago say this in an interview. He said no litvish posek will give a heter for financial reasons.
ETA because I know I'm going to get hugged - I'm just repeating what I heard. You are welcome to call your Rav to clarify. |
no hugs from me.  I believe you.
I agree everyone should discuss their personal situation with a rav that understands them, since finances can affect every aspect of a persons well begin, making this less black and whit.
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amother
Geranium
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Mon, Jul 26 2021, 10:38 am
So should I assume infertility and poverty are linked?
Does Hashem just hate some of us?
Because that is the conclusion I am reaching from some of you on this thread.
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amother
Lightblue
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Mon, Jul 26 2021, 10:40 am
| hello3 wrote: | | Accept that it says somewhere (need to find out exact source) that a baby is born with פתו בידו. Which means that any baby that’s born, they already have the bread that they will need. How exactly does that work? I’m not sure. But I believe that if a child is meant to be born, it will be born regardless of birth control. Ultimately hashem runs the world and if a kid will need to live through poverty he will and vice versa. A person who is rich and has kids based on that, can lose his money. And a person who is poor can make money. I don’t think it is ours to make these cheshbonos. I think a couple needs to think if they can handle another child as a whole and not base their decision only on one aspect of life that can change at any given time. And for that we have rabbonim that can help you navigate through it. |
You're referring to the Gemara in Nidda 31b. But it doesn't say what you think it does. I'm quoting it in context, with translation.
The point that the Gemara is making is that a son comes into the world with sustenance, because he's going to get a job, while a daughter won't.
There's nothing to do with each child coming into the world provided for.
ואמר ר' יצחק דבי רבי אמי בא זכר בעולם בא ככרו בידו זכר זה כר דכתיב (מלכים ב ו, כג) ויכרה להם כירה גדולה
And Rabbi Yitzḥak from the school of Rabbi Ami says: When a male comes into the world, his loaf of bread, I.e., his sustenance, comes into his possession. In other words, a male can provide for himself. This is based on the aforementioned interpretation of the word male [zakhar] as an abbreviation of: This is a kar [zeh kar], and the term kar refers to sustenance, as it is written: “And he prepared great provision [kera] for them” (II Kings 6:23).
נקבה אין עמה כלום נקבה נקייה באה עד דאמרה מזוני לא יהבי לה דכתיב (בראשית ל, כח) נקבה שכרך עלי ואתנה
By contrast, when a female comes into the world, nothing, I.e., no sustenance, comes with her. This is derived from the homiletic interpretation of the word female [nekeva] as an abbreviation of the phrase: She comes clean [nekiya ba’a], I.e., empty. Furthermore, until she says: Give me sustenance, people do not give her, as it is written in Laban’s request of Jacob: “Appoint me [nokva] your wages, and I will give it” (Genesis 30:28). Laban used the word nokva, similar to nekeva, when he said that he would pay Jacob only if he explicitly demanded his wages.
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amother
Arcticblue
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Mon, Jul 26 2021, 10:41 am
| amother [ Hibiscus ] wrote: | | Rav Gershon Ribner says something really scary. He says that one cannot escape fate. If one marries rich to force providence’s hand to escape poverty, he or she will face medical, developmental, or other challenges with his or her spouse or children exactly equivalent to the poverty he or she escaped. The same goes for limiting children. |
How can a human being, even a big tzadik claim to understand the ways of hashem?
It's actually a very easy claim to make because it can't be proven or refuted.
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amother
Hibiscus
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Mon, Jul 26 2021, 10:48 am
| amother [ Arcticblue ] wrote: | How can a human being, even a big tzadik claim to understand the ways of hashem?
It's actually a very easy claim to make because it can't be proven or refuted. |
He rarely says over his own things. He was likely mekabel this from Rav Hutner or others he learned by or else it is explicitly written in one of the earlier sefarim. You can ask him. He takes questions for his question and answer shiurim from anyone.
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amother
Arcticblue
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Mon, Jul 26 2021, 10:48 am
| amother [ Geranium ] wrote: | So should I assume infertility and poverty are linked?
Does Hashem just hate some of us?
Because that is the conclusion I am reaching from some of you on this thread. |
Ahh, that's the part they steer away from. Some here will be quick to point out how things full into place for those with emunah. But the logic conclusion then is that those suffering don't have emunah.
No comment.
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PinkFridge
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Mon, Jul 26 2021, 10:50 am
| amother [ Geranium ] wrote: | So should I assume infertility and poverty are linked?
Does Hashem just hate some of us?
Because that is the conclusion I am reaching from some of you on this thread. |
And I can see how one might feel that way. But that also means feeling that rich people and/or people with lots of kids are more inherently loveable and valuable. And that's surely not so.
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PinkFridge
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Mon, Jul 26 2021, 10:52 am
| amother [ Arcticblue ] wrote: | Ahh, that's the part they steer away from. Some here will be quick to point out how things full into place for those with emunah. But the logic conclusion then is that those suffering don't have emunah.
No comment. |
We generally learn emunah more from people who suffer than those who haven't.
They're in Emunah bootcamp.
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amother
Arcticblue
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Mon, Jul 26 2021, 10:58 am
| amother [ Hibiscus ] wrote: | | He rarely says over his own things. He was likely mekabel this from Rav Hutner or others he learned by or else it is explicitly written in one of the earlier sefarim. You can ask him. He takes questions for his question and answer shiurim from anyone. |
I hear you. I come from a perspective that I need things to make sense. What does it mean to you that "people can't escape fate"? People try to change their reality all the time. Whether it was escaping Europe before the war or losing weight to be healthy, people try to do what is b'derech hateva the best thing for them. According to what he's saying (the way I understand it) there's no escaping fate. A poor person that weds a wealthy person will simply have other suffering. I blind person that has their vision fixed will just have other suffering.
You accept this?
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NotLazySusan
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Mon, Jul 26 2021, 11:12 am
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Perhaps the voices of those of us from large families who grew up in poverty should have our experiences considered when today's parents make these decisions.
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amother
Tiffanyblue
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Mon, Jul 26 2021, 11:14 am
| amother [ Arcticblue ] wrote: | I hear you. I come from a perspective that I need things to make sense. What does it mean to you that "people can't escape fate"? People try to change their reality all the time. Whether it was escaping Europe before the war or losing weight to be healthy, people try to do what is b'derech hateva the best thing for them. According to what he's saying (the way I understand it) there's no escaping fate. A poor person that weds a wealthy person will simply have other suffering. I blind person that has their vision fixed will just have other suffering.
You accept this? |
I think this means that people can't escape fate by doing the wrong thing (in this case, limiting family size solely for financial reasons).
Of course you can try to make things better for yourself in general and that's part of hishtadlus.
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amother
Grape
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Mon, Jul 26 2021, 11:22 am
| amother [ Hibiscus ] wrote: | | Rav Gershon Ribner says something really scary. He says that one cannot escape fate. If one marries rich to force providence’s hand to escape poverty, he or she will face medical, developmental, or other challenges with his or her spouse or children exactly equivalent to the poverty he or she escaped. The same goes for limiting children. |
Is this said in a shiur ? Is there a link for this ?
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moonstone
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Mon, Jul 26 2021, 11:30 am
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OP, it's not a lack of bitachon. It's being a responsible adult and taking care of the children you already have without relying on miracles and money magically falling out of the sky.
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Ema of 5
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Mon, Jul 26 2021, 11:34 am
| amother [ Indigo ] wrote: | The woman doesn't need the heter, because she has no chiyuv in peru urevu.
DH is the one that needs it.
As a matter of fact, DH's rav will told me to tell DH to call him when I called, I called because I thought I could explain better, but to actually give the heter he spoke to DH directly. The heter is for him, not me. |
Would you mind messaging me your ravs name please? This is right in line with what I learned and how I feel, and I am currently looking for a rav, mine passed away.
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Ema of 5
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Mon, Jul 26 2021, 11:36 am
| hello3 wrote: | | Accept that it says somewhere (need to find out exact source) that a baby is born with פתו בידו. Which means that any baby that’s born, they already have the bread that they will need. How exactly does that work? I’m not sure. But I believe that if a child is meant to be born, it will be born regardless of birth control. Ultimately hashem runs the world and if a kid will need to live through poverty he will and vice versa. A person who is rich and has kids based on that, can lose his money. And a person who is poor can make money. I don’t think it is ours to make these cheshbonos. I think a couple needs to think if they can handle another child as a whole and not base their decision only on one aspect of life that can change at any given time. And for that we have rabbonim that can help you navigate through it. |
I don’t think anyone bases this decision solely on one aspect. It is one of numerous aspects that is taken into consideration.
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amother
Ballota
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Mon, Jul 26 2021, 11:38 am
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Wow. This is so foreign to me. Every child in my family was a wanted (and cherished) child. When my heart was full, I just stopped. I think we spoke with a rabbi along the way about the logistics, but there was no way I was going to have a child that I didn’t want. I really don’t understand. Not financial - emotional. How can someone coerce you into having another child?
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