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Emunah and bitachon regarding family size
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Ema of 4




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Jul 26 2021, 4:34 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
Most of us here are not that knowledgeable, but I'm sure you can call any litvish Rav for the source.

When you say something is assur or something is Halacha, you should be able to back that up with a source. Otherwise it should be something along the lines of “our rav holds….” or “I was taught…..”
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Mommyg8




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Jul 26 2021, 4:34 pm
shabbatiscoming wrote:
Im sorry, thats not going to work. If that poster said it was in shulcha aruch, she should know where in the shulchan aruch, otherwise her "source" just sounds made up.

Well, I was clear that my source is Rabbi Fuerst. There are others, I am sure, but he was clear that no litvish Rav will allow birth control for financial reasons alone. I am sure he didn't make it up.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Jul 26 2021, 4:35 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
Well, I was clear that my source is Rabbi Fuerst. There are others, I am sure, but he was clear that no litvish Rav will allow birth control for financial reasons alone. I am sure he didn't make it up.
Again, my question was not to you. I was specifically asking that ther anonymous poster who said it was from the shulchan aruch. I want to know where, if she is so sure that that is a source.

Also, I have no idea who the rabbi is wo you mentioned. I am not in the american charedi world.
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Mommyg8




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Jul 26 2021, 4:36 pm
Ema of 4 wrote:
When you say something is assur or something is Halacha, you should be able to back that up with a source. Otherwise it should be something along the lines of “our rav holds….” or “I was taught…..”

Ok, is it ok to put on makeup on Shabbos? Can you tell me if it's ok or not? What about turning on an electric light? What's the source for waiting six hours after meat before you eat dairy?

If you can't find me the source, those halachos don't exist. Is that fair?
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Ema of 4




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Jul 26 2021, 4:37 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
Ok, is it ok to put on makeup on Shabbos? Can you tell me if it's ok or not? What about turning on an electric light? What's the source for waiting six hours after meat before you eat dairy?

If you can't find me the source, those halachos don't exist. Is that fair?

If I don’t know the source for something, I will not say it’s assur. I will say I was taught or this is how we hold. And yes, your rav is a good source. But as Shabbat said, if you say something is in the shulchan aruch, you should be able to tell someone where to look.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Jul 26 2021, 4:41 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
Ok, is it ok to put on makeup on Shabbos? Can you tell me if it's ok or not? What about turning on an electric light? What's the source for waiting six hours after meat before you eat dairy?

If you can't find me the source, those halachos don't exist. Is that fair?
I think you are fighting the wrong fight here. The poster mentioned her source, the shulchan aruch. I just asked her to tell me xactly where. Thats all. Why is that not fair? She mentioned a source. If someone TRULY knows that that is the source, they should be able to tell me where in that source it is found.
Your examples dont make sense as nobody said things dont exist, just that we wanted the actual source.
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amother




Natural
 

Post Mon, Jul 26 2021, 4:54 pm
I actually was having anxiety attacks about financial. We called a rav to go on birth control. He said we don't do birth control because of financial. I told him I'm having anxiety attacks and not functioning. He gave us the heter for some time. I don't remember if it was 6 months or a year.
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amother




Phlox
 

Post Mon, Jul 26 2021, 7:35 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
Ok, is it ok to put on makeup on Shabbos? Can you tell me if it's ok or not? What about turning on an electric light? What's the source for waiting six hours after meat before you eat dairy?

If you can't find me the source, those halachos don't exist. Is that fair?

I could find you the sources for all those if I wanted to. I'm not going to because it would be a waste of time.
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amother




Nemesia
 

Post Mon, Jul 26 2021, 9:13 pm
While you will probably not get a heter to use BC due to financial concerns, the question can be framed differently and you would get a heter. Talk more about the shalom bayis issues that occur from the stress of two parents working or working longer hours or something like that. If that's the case of course.

In my case, my DH had a mental disorder and I received a heter for BC because I was single-handedly supporting my family and it was hard. Every situation is different.

As for emunah, let's get this straight once and for all. EMUNAH MEANS YOU ACCEPT G-Ds WILL, you accept that whatever happens is from Hashem, not that you think somehow all your wishes will come true. It's living life a day at a time, with a smile and joy in your heart, knowing that Hashem is taking care of you. And that even if He gives you a challenge, He will give you the strength to handle it and then you will become stronger because of it.
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amother




Nemesia
 

Post Mon, Jul 26 2021, 9:17 pm
I want to also mention that life is fleeting. I recently received a diagnosis that put this into perspective for me. And I was like, wow, if only I could have had more children. I think that going through it I didn't value having children so much. But later in life when you look back, each child will be your zechus and it's huge. Just think that this is what we as women were created for. Everything else is secondary at best. When put in perspective, does this make you want to have children more? If not, you probably need a break
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amother




Nemesia
 

Post Mon, Jul 26 2021, 9:37 pm
The first "emunah mistake" in the Torah was Haran. He saw that Abraham jumped into the fire and was saved so he said, "hey me too!". He jumped and was not saved. What was the difference? Did Hashem love Abraham more and wanted Haran to suffer?? Of course not!

I think there are a few ways to answer, but one way is to see that Abraham and Haran had different attitudes. Abraham was willing to sacrifice his life for G-d and G-d responded by saving him. Haran wanted a repeat miracle but was not ready for the sacrifice. There wasn't enough merit in that case to save Haran. Notably, Haran was rewarded, as we are told later.

Don't rely on miracles, but if this is what you determine to be the right thing to do, do it happily knowing that whatever happens you will thrive under the care of Hashem our loving Father, who can and does care for all of us.
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amother




Nemesia
 

Post Mon, Jul 26 2021, 9:40 pm
Good luck on the decision, OP, and may Hashem bless you with abundance so you can raise your family beautifully.
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Ema of 4




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Jul 26 2021, 9:42 pm
amother [ Nemesia ] wrote:
I want to also mention that life is fleeting. I recently received a diagnosis that put this into perspective for me. And I was like, wow, if only I could have had more children. I think that going through it I didn't value having children so much. But later in life when you look back, each child will be your zechus and it's huge. Just think that this is what we as women were created for. Everything else is secondary at best. When put in perspective, does this make you want to have children more? If not, you probably need a break

No. Just no. What were childless women created for them? Were they created for no purpose?
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amother




Nemesia
 

Post Mon, Jul 26 2021, 9:53 pm
Ema of 4 wrote:
No. Just no. What were childless women created for them? Were they created for no purpose?


Oh, come on. I'm not saying there is no other possible tafkid for a women. Childless women have fantastic tafkidim. Sarah Schenirer and Rebitzen David are amazing examples. Women can achieve greatness in many many ways. I was just pointing out that when a women is able to have children, that is likely her main tafkid, so she shouldn't leave it on the table.

sorry if my choice of words was offensive, I didn't intend it to be
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amother




Nemesia
 

Post Mon, Jul 26 2021, 9:56 pm
Ema of 4 wrote:
No. Just no. What were childless women created for them? Were they created for no purpose?


I didn't mean everything else any women does is secondary at best. Or a woman who doesn't have children is secondary (Chas visholom!!). I meant that for a woman who can have children, having and raising those children is the best thing she can do. For other woman who cannot have children, Hashem chose them for another kind of greatness, and for her, there is something else just as special or more special. Better?
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amother




Ballota
 

Post Mon, Jul 26 2021, 10:03 pm
I aged out of having children. I am SO proud of my children and love them all to bits. Do I wake up every day with regret that I didn’t have more? No! That’s not healthy!
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Ema of 4




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Jul 26 2021, 10:11 pm
amother [ Nemesia ] wrote:
I didn't mean everything else any women does is secondary at best. Or a woman who doesn't have children is secondary (Chas visholom!!). I meant that for a woman who can have children, having and raising those children is the best thing she can do. For other woman who cannot have children, Hashem chose them for another kind of greatness, and for her, there is something else just as special or more special. Better?

I disagree, but I’m not detailing this thread.
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amother




Taupe
 

Post Mon, Jul 26 2021, 10:55 pm
amother [ Papayawhip ] wrote:
Oy, I feel bad but you missed the point.
Your parents were supposed to struggle with parnassah. They were never supposed to have enough money.
Hashem would have made this happen whether they had 2 kids or 12 kids. You need to re-wire the way you are looking at the situation.
Chas v'shalom to think that having more children is what caused their poverty.


no, you csnt tell me that my parents wouldve suffered financially with 4 kids as with 12!! first, you are not hashem

second, my parents earned a combined 130k which is nothing when having to pay for many tuitions and kosher food/ clothes for a large family

but, if you are saying that if my parents had 4 kids, then they wouldnt earn those salaries, then thats against tevah and against the idea that it makes sense to do hishtadlus to get a good job

the ones doing well with no degrees and with large families are rare

unless the parents both work like both dentists etc then its a struggle

its easy to say "if you didnt have more kids you wouldve suffered financially anyway" but how do you know hashem didnt want my parents to say "our kids are suffering bec of ...we need to stop to provide for the kids we do have"??

and, when ppl say they need a heter for financial reasons its more than that bec not being able to pay for ....means one is stressed etc like my parents were which affects emotional and physical health(stress causes problems too)

so nobody but a very high level rav can tell op if its a lack of bitachon...

and if 2 parents are really ppl with bitachon then yes theyll have "miracles" bec they really believe but very few ppl really have that high level of bitachon

and, if life were so simple that just have kids and believe hashem will provide then ppl wont have to look to marry their sons to "money" bec just believe ! have bitachon! and ppl dont have to get degrees bec just believe! bitachon! also why work hard if we are destined to be poor no matter how many kids we have(this is according to what you are saying)?

are you saying a poor girl is destined not to marry kollel bec her parents cant support?

this is wrong bec we are supposed to do hishtadlus and then have bitachon and believe and maybe a rav will say that the mom should also work which would be too stressful? so theres another factor besides finances ! or maybe a rav will ask if lack of finances will affect the mental/physical health of....

pls dont tell me you have all the answers!!
life is not so lavan and shachar! its complex....nobody here can tell op she has or doesnt bitachon...we are not on a high level...
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allthingsblue




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Jul 26 2021, 11:02 pm
amother [ Nemesia ] wrote:
I want to also mention that life is fleeting. I recently received a diagnosis that put this into perspective for me. And I was like, wow, if only I could have had more children. I think that going through it I didn't value having children so much. But later in life when you look back, each child will be your zechus and it's huge. Just think that this is what we as women were created for. Everything else is secondary at best. When put in perspective, does this make you want to have children more? If not, you probably need a break


This is interesting. When my life gets scary I think about the children I do have, and whether I’ve been a good mother to them, and I pray to Hashem to allow me to continue to be their mother and take care of them. I have never every thought about or regretted a child that doesn’t exist.
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amother




Arcticblue
 

Post Mon, Jul 26 2021, 11:10 pm
amother [ Taupe ] wrote:
no, you csnt tell me that my parents wouldve suffered financially with 4 kids as with 12!! first, you are not hashem

second, my parents earned a combined 130k which is nothing when having to pay for many tuitions and kosher food/ clothes for a large family

but, if you are saying that if my parents had 4 kids, then they wouldnt earn those salaries, then thats against tevah and against the idea that it makes sense to do hishtadlus to get a good job

the ones doing well with no degrees and with large families are rare

unless the parents both work like both dentists etc then its a struggle

its easy to say "if you didnt have more kids you wouldve suffered financially anyway" but how do you know hashem didnt want my parents to say "our kids are suffering bec of ...we need to stop to provide for the kids we do have"??

and, when ppl say they need a heter for financial reasons its more than that bec not being able to pay for ....means one is stressed etc like my parents were which affects emotional and physical health(stress causes problems too)

so nobody but a very high level rav can tell op if its a lack of bitachon...

and if 2 parents are really ppl with bitachon then yes theyll have "miracles" bec they really believe but very few ppl really have that high level of bitachon

and, if life were so simple that just have kids and believe hashem will provide then ppl wont have to look to marry their sons to "money" bec just believe ! have bitachon! and ppl dont have to get degrees bec just believe! bitachon! also why work hard if we are destined to be poor no matter how many kids we have(this is according to what you are saying)?

are you saying a poor girl is destined not to marry kollel bec her parents cant support?

this is wrong bec we are supposed to do hishtadlus and then have bitachon and believe and maybe a rav will say that the mom should also work which would be too stressful? so theres another factor besides finances ! or maybe a rav will ask if lack of finances will affect the mental/physical health of....

pls dont tell me you have all the answers!!
life is not so lavan and shachar! its complex....nobody here can tell op she has or doesnt bitachon...we are not on a high level...



I agree with everything you said.

There's a brand of Judaism that teaches that posters way of thinking. That is that everything that happens would have happened regardless of human intervention. So a person who makes 500k a year as a doctor believes she'd have the same money even if she was a preschool assistant. And a secretary making 25k believes she'd be in the same financial predicament even if she'd be a hotshot lawyer billing $1000 an hour.

I think this is taught so that people don't question or have regrets. It's peaceful and simple to believe that none of the decisions or routes we take in life make a difference anyway. And this would carry on to family size. They believe that 5 children or 15 children doesn't impact the family finances as hashem gives what they were supposed to have anyway.
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