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Saying shame on you to your children
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PinkFridge




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Jul 30 2021, 10:24 am
amother [ Stone ] wrote:
How??

Um, asking for a friend...


Change the script. Find a way to remember to. (Easier said than done.)
If you can do it safely when your kids get you angry, send yourself to your room for a bit to cool down and regroup instead of them.
Ask for IRL support - maybe local parenting classes from someone you respect that won't be big $$.
Hatzlacha!
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amother




DarkYellow
 

Post Fri, Jul 30 2021, 10:48 am
amother [ Acacia ] wrote:
Seriously, I never before in my life thought “shame on you” was meant to literally bestow shame. You learn something new every day.

For the record I’m also in my forties.

Also for the record this is not an expression I use myself, I don’t think I’ve ever been in a position to say it to anyone. It does seem to me to be something that would be said in anger.

As a child I also had no idea what the expression meant

But the way it was said and the sentiment behind it left me with an awful feeling
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SafeAtLast




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Jul 30 2021, 11:01 am
behappy2 wrote:
Healthy shame is knowing we are human, fallible, non perfect.

Unhealthy shame is thinking we are God like or need to be God like. Either we act superior or criticize ourselves or others.

When one has unhealthy shame he passes it on like a hot potato to all those in his environment.

So I would say it really depends on how it was said.


I literally can't understand how it could be said in a way that isn't negative.
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thunderstorm




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Jul 30 2021, 11:08 am
I cut this out from an article I read :

Guilt and Shame Defined

In psychology, guilt is defined as an emotional state that appears when we feel we have failed to live up to the morals of ourselves or others. Guilt provokes both thoughts of how we have failed and distressing emotions like sadness, anger, or anxiety. It can even cause physical reactions, such as an upset stomach. If resolved appropriately, some guilt can be healthy.

Shame, on the other hand, is defined as an intense feeling about the self that comes from failing to live up to your own or others' standards. Sounds similar, right? Well, the main difference is that shame makes you see yourself as a bad person while guilt implies, you are a good person who did something bad. Shame is unhealthy, especially if it's not resolved, because it leads to loss of self-esteem over time.

Let's look at an example. Imagine you become distracted while driving. You don't notice the light turning yellow, so you run a red light, and you almost hit someone. If you feel guilty, you might say, "Oh man, oh man, I really messed that up. I should be more careful. I should work on not getting distracted."

Shame is more toxic and harmful to your self-esteem. Shame says, "Oh man, oh man, I am an awful driver. I am just such a horrible person. I should not be allowed to drive; I should not even be allowed to go to work." Do you see the difference? With shame, it's about you as a person, not your actions. Shame can also come from outside sources. In this example, you might feel shame if the person in the passenger's seat berated you for being a bad person.

Overall, the difference is important. Guilt can be healthy because it allows us to identify and correct potentially problematic behaviors. Shame, on the other hand, finds a problem with the person instead of the behavior. Everyone experiences guilt and shame, some more than others, but you can learn to handle both emotions with the right tools.
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nchr




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Jul 30 2021, 1:44 pm
SafeAtLast wrote:
I literally can't understand how it could be said in a way that isn't negative.


I think context is important here because you can use the word in a way that is fine.
דו זעהסט אז אלע אנדערע קינדער האבן אן שיך- שעמסט זיך נישט אזוי צו גיין אין גאס?1
דו ביסט שוין זייער גרויס און דו ווייסט אז צו ענטפערן ניין פאר א מאמע איז אסור. איך ווייס אז דו שעמסט זיך 2
3. בושה/ביישנות איז א אידישע מידה.
4. We daven our children should be שעמעדיג.

Now that is all different than yelling שעם דיך/ מעגסט זיך שעמען but the above examples are not negative.
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Zehava




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Jul 30 2021, 1:52 pm
nchr wrote:
I think context is important here because you can use the word in a way that is fine.
דו זעהסט אז אלע אנדערע קינדער האבן אן שיך- שעמסט זיך נישט אזוי צו גיין אין גאס?1
דו ביסט שוין זייער גרויס און דו ווייסט אז צו ענטפערן ניין פאר א מאמע איז אסור. איך ווייס אז דו שעמסט זיך 2
3. בושה/ביישנות איז א אידישע מידה.
4. We daven our children should be שעמעדיג.

Now that is all different than yelling שעם דיך/ מעגסט זיך שעמען but the above examples are not negative.

For the first example in English that would be “you’re not embarrassed?” Not shame on you. All the other ones are negative and I’d never say those to my kids. Plus it means more shyness/modesty not shame.
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nchr




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Jul 30 2021, 1:55 pm
Zehava wrote:
For the first example in English that would be “you’re not embarrassed?” Not shame on you. All the other ones are negative and I’d never say those to my kids. Plus it means more shyness/modesty not shame.


I wasn't comparing it to the phrase shame on you which sounds more like throwing shame onto a person. I don't even think there is a way to say that in Yiddish. The poster just said she doesn't understand how the word can be used in a non negative way so I was giving examples. I agree it has a different meaning in those contexts. And how are the other examples negative?
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Zehava




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Jul 30 2021, 1:59 pm
nchr wrote:
I wasn't comparing it to the phrase shame on you which sounds more like throwing shame onto a person. I don't even think there is a way to say that in Yiddish. The poster just said she doesn't understand how the word can be used in a non negative way so I was giving examples. I agree it has a different meaning in those contexts. And how are the other examples negative?

She meant the word shame in English which is inherently negative. Your Yiddish examples have other translations in English.
I would never tell my kids that they have to feel ashamed/embarrassed whatever because of something they did. And Ofcourse not that it’s the way to be Jewish. That’s negative to me.
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SafeAtLast




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Jul 30 2021, 2:01 pm
nchr wrote:
I think context is important here because you can use the word in a way that is fine.
דו זעהסט אז אלע אנדערע קינדער האבן אן שיך- שעמסט זיך נישט אזוי צו גיין אין גאס?1
דו ביסט שוין זייער גרויס און דו ווייסט אז צו ענטפערן ניין פאר א מאמע איז אסור. איך ווייס אז דו שעמסט זיך 2
3. בושה/ביישנות איז א אידישע מידה.
4. We daven our children should be שעמעדיג.

Now that is all different than yelling שעם דיך/ מעגסט זיך שעמען but the above examples are not negative.


Why would you add the shaming part to number 2?
They can be ashamed of their action, but why rub it in their face?
The first part is plenty of discipline already.

Also what Zehava pointed out about the language differences for the other examples.
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nchr




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Jul 30 2021, 2:04 pm
SafeAtLast wrote:
Why would you add the shaming part to number 2?
They can be ashamed of their action, but why rub it in their face?
The first part is plenty of discipline already.

Also what Zehava pointed out about the language differences for the other examples.


OK because you referenced yiddish here.

SafeAtLast wrote:
Also maybe because I am thinking of the Yiddish version, which is more literal.
שעם דיך Or מעגסט זיך שעמען, yelled in an angry tone of voice, can definitely make a child feel like less than 2 cents.


So I guess I just assumed you meant it on this page too. Sorry about that.

As for why I'd mention it in the second example. Because it's showing the child I know they are feeling ashamed of whatever they did.
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Zehava




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Jul 30 2021, 2:06 pm
nchr wrote:
So I guess I just assumed you meant it on this page too. Sorry about that.

As for why I'd mention it in the second example. Because it's showing the child I know they are feeling ashamed of whatever they did.

Why is it a given that a child should feel ashamed for saying the word no?
Are you trying to raise children who can never say no?
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nchr




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Jul 30 2021, 2:13 pm
Zehava wrote:
Why is it a given that a child should feel ashamed for saying the word no?
Are you trying to raise children who can never say no?


I'm trying to raise children who follow the Torah. That means not saying no to a mother, unless that mother tells them to do something against the Torah, which I'm not. I guess you can say that if I take that position I shouldn't try to set my children up for situations with yes or no answers, and I hear that, but I didn't spend that much time thinking of examples and sometimes I do say things that a child can say yes or no to, and I would expect a yes.
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Zehava




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Jul 30 2021, 2:19 pm
nchr wrote:
I'm trying to raise children who follow the Torah. That means not saying no to a mother, unless that mother tells them to do something against the Torah, which I'm not. I guess you can say that if I take that position I shouldn't try to set my children up for situations with yes or no answers, and I hear that, but I didn't spend that much time thinking of examples and sometimes I do say things that a child can say yes or no to, and I would expect a yes.

Putting aside the fact that I disagree with that premise, and think that sets your children up to be doormats, even if you were right that still doesn’t translate into having to feel shame when doing it.
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tp3




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Jul 30 2021, 2:24 pm
nchr wrote:
I'm trying to raise children who follow the Torah. That means not saying no to a mother, unless that mother tells them to do something against the Torah, which I'm not. I guess you can say that if I take that position I shouldn't try to set my children up for situations with yes or no answers, and I hear that, but I didn't spend that much time thinking of examples and sometimes I do say things that a child can say yes or no to, and I would expect a yes.

Kids cant say yes until they've said no.
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nchr




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Jul 30 2021, 2:26 pm
Zehava wrote:
Putting aside the fact that I disagree with that premise, and think that sets your children up to be doormats, even if you were right that still doesn’t translate into having to feel shame when doing it.


OK so I can be wrong about that one, and that could be me projecting my own shame or my own understanding of shame.
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amother




DarkYellow
 

Post Fri, Jul 30 2021, 2:32 pm
If something feels wrong to a child they should be able to say no- even to a parent.

Of course - they can be taught to say it in a respectful way!
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nchr




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Jul 30 2021, 3:01 pm
amother [ DarkYellow ] wrote:
If something feels wrong to a child they should be able to say no- even to a parent.

Of course - they can be taught to say it in a respectful way!


I hear you. I'm not a dayan who can decide in the moment if that no is allowed or not and give over that specific education to my children. I try to not put them in a position to say no. However, since the common understanding is that it is usar to say no to a parent unless that parent tells a child to do something against the Torah chv, I will give that over to my children and I do expect them to not say no to me.
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amother




Olive
 

Post Fri, Jul 30 2021, 3:23 pm
NEVER Say no to you? That’s kinda hard. You might want to try not to be very strict with them and maybe don’t ask them to do too much if they must oblige to every request you have of them.
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PinkFridge




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Jul 30 2021, 3:33 pm
nchr wrote:
I hear you. I'm not a dayan who can decide in the moment if that no is allowed or not and give over that specific education to my children. I try to not put them in a position to say no. However, since the common understanding is that it is usar to say no to a parent unless that parent tells a child to do something against the Torah chv, I will give that over to my children and I do expect them to not say no to me.


I assume that when your kids say no you don't say "shame on you."
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amother




Lilac
 

Post Fri, Jul 30 2021, 3:36 pm
Mother: Good children never say "no" to their mothers. Is that correct?

Child: Yes.

Mother: So are you allowed to say "no" to your mother?

Child:
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