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If it was up to you where should they go? So
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amother
Aster


 

Post Sun, Aug 01 2021, 6:45 pm
Yes definitely address the issues.
Blaming others for moving in is not the way and won't work.
At the very least it is not productive.
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amother
Aqua


 

Post Sun, Aug 01 2021, 6:48 pm
amother [ Firethorn ] wrote:
You've just said it yourself - that is the key. - People should move to areas NEAR developed areas - not IN overly developed areas. If people consistently do this, we would be consistently developing new areas and spreading out slowly and steadily.

No one has any issues with that, and we gladly and lovingly welcome everyone to move nearby and expand the current areas.


No one?

Don't expect the non-Jews living in the surrounding areas to welcome large influxes or developments any more than you would. Or do they not count because you can call them anti-Semites for thinking the same way you do?

Even assuming one hundred families manage to find existing housing and move to a neighboring city it isn't going to solve any housing crisis. And how is it supposed to work? One hundred people from out of the area are supposed to find single houses in a city they know little about in walking distance of a shul they build at the same time?
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amother
Firethorn


 

Post Sun, Aug 01 2021, 7:02 pm
amother [ Aqua ] wrote:
No one?

Don't expect the non-Jews living in the surrounding areas to welcome large influxes or developments any more than you would. Or do they not count because you can call them anti-Semites for thinking the same way you do?

Even assuming one hundred families manage to find existing housing and move to a neighboring city it isn't going to solve any housing crisis. And how is it supposed to work? One hundred people from out of the area are supposed to find single houses in a city they know little about in walking distance of a shul they build at the same time?


Isn't this exactly how Pearl River, Chestnut Ridge and other outlying communities were built up? One by one, people bought the available houses. They didn't add developments or change the zoning. They abided by the rules and settled in nicely in these towns.

As for shuls, that is the easiest solution. As people spread out in these areas, they set up local basements for minyanim until there were enough people to build a shul. Look at Chestnut Ridge for example. At first the men trudged into the next neighborhood for minyanim, then they set up shuls in local basements, and now they have a few standalone shuls.

It is very doable. You just have to put up with the growing pains for a little while.
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amother
Goldenrod


 

Post Sun, Aug 01 2021, 7:04 pm
amother [ Firethorn ] wrote:
You've just said it yourself - that is the key. - People should move to areas NEAR developed areas - not IN overly developed areas. If people consistently do this, we would be consistently developing new areas and spreading out slowly and steadily.

No one has any issues with that, and we gladly and lovingly welcome everyone to move nearby and expand the current areas.


But they are complaining about the surrounding towns. That's what people are doing. But you can't just build a school overnight so at first they join the other town. But trust me no one in the surrounding areas would like to depend on lakewood, they would like to avoid it at all costs.
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amother
Firethorn


 

Post Sun, Aug 01 2021, 7:07 pm
amother [ Goldenrod ] wrote:
But they are complaining about the surrounding towns. That's what people are doing. But you can't just build a school overnight so at first they join the other town. But trust me no one in the surrounding areas would like to depend on lakewood, they would like to avoid it at all costs.


No, we are complaining about the new developments IN town that are creating havoc on the main arteries of town. They are overwhelming the infrastructure, and there is no room to expand the infrastructure.

Again, school is a separate issue. The school situation affects everyone - old-timers and newcomers alike. The infrastructures for the schooling is severely lacking and is not accommodating the growth for this generation, never mind the next one. It's a huge issue that needs to be tackled regardless if people move or not.
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amother
Apple


 

Post Sun, Aug 01 2021, 9:40 pm
amother [ Firethorn ] wrote:
And don't start petitioning the boards to add sidewalks to our rural streets. This is a not a city, and we like the rural/suburban set up. And accept the idea that your kids will be dropped off at the corner of your street, instead of demanding multiple buses drive into your street and drop off the kids at your front door.

That might help the car traffic, no? Like if I can walk to the school, the supermarket or shoe shop there will be less car congestion, no?

* disclaimer. I don’t know lkwd, so I have no idea how wide the roads are, I don’t know how much it’ll take away from the cars space*
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out-of-towner




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 01 2021, 9:41 pm
Mishpacha has been discussing a big issue over the last few weeks, the severe lack of people who want to teach. How exactly is this supposed to help us cover the school shortage?

Trust me, if I felt I could do it I would become a teacher. I would love to be on my kids school schedule. I just don't think I'm cut out for it and I work the best with the elderly hence my profession.
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amother
Cobalt


 

Post Sun, Aug 01 2021, 11:06 pm
amother [ Brunette ] wrote:
They should start their own communities, maybe adjacent to other established frum communities? Not take them over.

But I’m not a “they” plural
I’m just a lonely introverted “me” with not many friends and for sure not enough to start a community
So I was hoping to move to an existing welcoming community and maybe make some friends?
Oh well
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amother
Mulberry


 

Post Sun, Aug 01 2021, 11:18 pm
amother [ Pearl ] wrote:
We went to the Jackson wooden park today and on the way back we passed a gorgeous frum development that’s being built. I think it’s called royal grove? Who’s buying there? Looks like they’re building a huge complex and will all move there at once so they don’t need to worry about infrastructure. It’s pretty far out but loads of spacious houses.


Royal grove is mostly frum.
Where do they shop? Clothing/food
Where do they send their kids to school?

They drive through lakewood. I’m sure they Sit for 30 minutes in traffic driving into town. And then breathe with satisfaction as they drive back to Jackson that bH they don’t live in the town.

It wonderful that ppl are moving to Howell, brick, Jackson, Toms River, and Manchester and beyond. But not a single one of those communities would not exist without lakewood schools, mikvah, and shopping. Maybe one day. But not now. Even most jobs are in lakewood

Most drive on lakewood streets daily.

Again until you have experienced lakewood traffic you cannot comprehend how bad some areas are.

Someone asked earlier why it is so bad to put 40 families where one once lived. If this is done many times along an already congested road and no infrastructure changes and all new street are dead ends then you are feeding hundreds of new residents onto roads that were never designed to handle that load of traffic. They were designed for 4 single family homes. Not 4x40 developments.
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amother
Mulberry


 

Post Sun, Aug 01 2021, 11:21 pm
amother [ Goldenrod ] wrote:
But they are complaining about the surrounding towns. That's what people are doing. But you can't just build a school overnight so at first they join the other town. But trust me no one in the surrounding areas would like to depend on lakewood, they would like to avoid it at all costs.

Im sure they would like to avoid lakes at all costs

Ppl from Toms River and Jackson complain to me daily what a step down moving to lakewood was. They do it on here all the time also.
Education is below expectations
Mikva appts are so late
No good
Sushi
Bagels
Chinese
Traffic is crazy
Etc
Ppl tell me I don’t know why anyone stays in lkwd it’s so bad at this point - and in my head I’m thinking why are you shopping here then.

It’s hard to here how our town criticized so often. Ppl so unhappy. And they keep coming.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 01 2021, 11:21 pm
amother [ Apple ] wrote:
That might help the car traffic, no? Like if I can walk to the school, the supermarket or shoe shop there will be less car congestion, no?

* disclaimer. I don’t know lkwd, so I have no idea how wide the roads are, I don’t know how much it’ll take away from the cars space*


Was Firehorn talking about side streets of the cul de sac type, or the type that have traffic? Side streets that are thru streets? Rural roads like stretches of Main Street in Monsey near 59?
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amother
NeonBlue


 

Post Mon, Aug 02 2021, 12:09 am
amother [ Mulberry ] wrote:
Im sure they would like to avoid lakes at all costs

Ppl from Toms River and Jackson complain to me daily what a step down moving to lakewood was. They do it on here all the time also.
Education is below expectations
Mikva appts are so late
No good
Sushi
Bagels
Chinese
Traffic is crazy
Etc
Ppl tell me I don’t know why anyone stays in lkwd it’s so bad at this point - and in my head I’m thinking why are you shopping here then.

It’s hard to here how our town criticized so often. Ppl so unhappy. And they keep coming.


if you and others here feel so strongly that we who are moving in, should not come to your town and why are we shopping there/coming to the schools etc

why is this different than if all the families who pay full tuition say "why do all you families who need a deduction/dont pay full tuition fill up the classes?" we want to have small classes!!

just like rich/poor middle class dont have a right to say that the poor who dont pay much tuition should not overwhelm the classes/schools so too you dont get to decide who comes to "your town" even if it creates more traffic etc.

and pls dont say to move to other towns that can handle the load"" bec the nonyehudim there dont want us to move in there either as they will also see more traffic etc which will change their "peaceful" town too!!

if the developers are getting approved, then this issue should be taken up with them, they are getting rich without being responsible to create the infrastructure for it, but once they build, I have every right to take advantage of it or else another family will...
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amother
Mulberry


 

Post Mon, Aug 02 2021, 12:33 am
amother [ NeonBlue ] wrote:
if you and others here feel so strongly that we who are moving in, should not come to your town and why are we shopping there/coming to the schools etc

why is this different than if all the families who pay full tuition say "why do all you families who need a deduction/dont pay full tuition fill up the classes?" we want to have small classes!!

just like rich/poor middle class dont have a right to say that the poor who dont pay much tuition should not overwhelm the classes/schools so too you dont get to decide who comes to "your town" even if it creates more traffic etc.

and pls dont say to move to other towns that can handle the load"" bec the nonyehudim there dont want us to move in there either as they will also see more traffic etc which will change their "peaceful" town too!!

if the developers are getting approved, then this issue should be taken up with them, they are getting rich without being responsible to create the infrastructure for it, but once they build, I have every right to take advantage of it or else another family will...


I’m confused.
You said they want to start their own communities.
I said I can tell bec they trash talk lakewood aren’t we agreeing?

And I agree that. Developers and planning board are to blame 100% Not ppl moving here. They didn’t create the Mess. They just get to join it.
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amother
NeonBlue


 

Post Mon, Aug 02 2021, 12:53 am
amother [ Mulberry ] wrote:
I’m confused.
You said they want to start their own communities.
I said I can tell bec they trash talk lakewood aren’t we agreeing?

And I agree that. Developers and planning board are to blame 100% Not ppl moving here. They didn’t create the Mess. They just get to join it.


no, im saying that if I want to move in town, I have a right to do so if the new developments were built there....

yes, this may be the "fault" of the developers, which is what they do, the developers just want to get rich quick"" and not care/worry about the aftereffects

but then noone should be blaming us for moving into town....if we dont move there, someone will!
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amother
DarkPurple


 

Post Mon, Aug 02 2021, 1:14 am
southernbubby wrote:
What part of Florida is bursting at the seams? People can't put multi family housing on lots zoned for single homes.


Someone here complained that their Florida school is getting over 200 new kids and another person said that the New Yorkers are coming and overburdening with maxing out and having expectations etc. so I was referring to those posts.
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amother
DarkPurple


 

Post Mon, Aug 02 2021, 1:24 am
amother [ Firethorn ] wrote:
Isn't this exactly how Pearl River, Chestnut Ridge and other outlying communities were built up? One by one, people bought the available houses. They didn't add developments or change the zoning. They abided by the rules and settled in nicely in these towns.

As for shuls, that is the easiest solution. As people spread out in these areas, they set up local basements for minyanim until there were enough people to build a shul. Look at Chestnut Ridge for example. At first the men trudged into the next neighborhood for minyanim, then they set up shuls in local basements, and now they have a few standalone shuls.

It is very doable. You just have to put up with the growing pains for a little while.


Hey, how come you feel entitled to live in a neighborhood that had everything available to you or your parents when they arrived but can’t fargin other jewish families the same?

Also, why can’t you live with the same growing pains like you expect others to? Or move out to these areas that are so comfortable and doable, because you are miserable from the influx of frum people?

This is Hypocrisy. That’s all. And selfishness.

Suddenly schools are not an issue either. I hear.

Edited for typo
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amother
DarkPurple


 

Post Mon, Aug 02 2021, 3:15 am
amother [ Firethorn ] wrote:
Your post is on point for moving into communities where there's place for growth. It is off base for those moving into communities bursting at its seams and expecting accommodations no matter the cost.

It makes no sense to be moving from a place that you're outpriced and has no breathing room to just recreate the same scenario in other towns. When towns are so overloaded that the quality of life has taken a steep dive for everyone involved, it benefits no one. Not the old inhabitants, nor the newcomers. If you're moving from Brooklyn to escape the limited options, congestion and high prices, why are you recreating it in Monsey, in Lakewood and in other towns. It isn't the situation where there is no land, or communities available for growth. It is just that no one wants to put in the work or wants to handle the inconveniences.

If people would be willing to go elsewhere, the developers would be building elsewhere.

The question you ask above is totally off base. No one is sending anyone to live in the shack of the woods. There are beautiful accommodations in so many nearby communities, and probably nicer than the one we are 'peacefully' living in. We aren't asking to live in luxury, we are asking to be able to live a life where the roads can be traveled, and the schools don't have kids jammed into a janitor's closet.

America has 4,563,570,600,000 square feet of space. There's plenty of space for everyone to live in beautiful accommodations.


First-
I’m not sure who you’re referring to when you say “no one”. I am paying for the building fee in my kids school in Brooklyn, although I’m living here since I was born. I’m glad Klal Yisroel is growing by leaps and bounds. The expanding expenses are shared by everyone. Today I’m the host and you’re the newcomer and tomorrow it is the other way around.

Not everyone has the means or talents to actually build a new place or fund it. I would have loved to open a school and wished for schools to be more individualized. It’s not something I’m able to do currently. So I don’t see it as people not wanting to do the work, but rather doing what they can.

When you put up a performance, you need some actors, singers, dancers, etc. Mostly though, you need an audience. So only a small number of people actually need to create new infrastructure. The rest of the population needs to support it, by purchasing locally or sending to new schools and paying tuition, and so on.
Like I mentioned in my post, oak ‘n vine is just one example of people putting in the work to expand while coming to live there.

Next-
The people living in those nearby communities, don’t want hordes of newcomers either, just like you.

Lastly-
Please feel free to buy all the real estate you can in yehupitzville. It’ll hardly cost you anything, you’ll have a farm to yourself with no long lines for chalav yisrael as you will milk your own cows. There will be enough room on your vast acres of land to homeschool your brood. No traffic ever and may you live happily ever after.
Oh and you can toivel in the lake and your husband can pull together minyan for special occasions. Maybe he can decide to travel for the Yamim Nora’im like the Yidden in the shtetlach did in the good old days you are yearning for.
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GetReal




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 02 2021, 8:31 am
How do these developments get approved without proper infrastructure?
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 02 2021, 8:40 am
In general, frum people or any group of people who form a religious and ethnic community, get along better with the mainstream community if they follow the rules of the locality and this is better accomplished where the frum people are interspersed within the mainstream community.
My brother lived in a place where garbage pick up was limited to a certain amount of bags or cans per pick up unless a larger pick up was paid for. Where I currently live, in Monsey, there is a lot of trash and sometimes the amount of litter on the ground is astounding. More people make more trash just like they make more traffic.
In neighborhoods where there may be a few frum families on each block, this may be less noticeable to outsiders but in neighborhoods like mine, the trash can be overwhelming. People who don't love trash like Oscar the Grouch complain about it.
As far as moving to a new location where the schools are at capacity, the newcomers have to be part of the solution rather than having expectations that the magic door will open.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 02 2021, 8:51 am
GetReal wrote:
How do these developments get approved without proper infrastructure?


Under the table deals. The question is being asked how a condo complex was built that collapsed on it's sleeping inhabitants less than 40 years later. It looks like something fishy was going on.
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