Dear Julia, Im done with the topic, but my shock has

amother

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 6:05 am

Dear Julia, Im done with the topic, but after some thought, my shock has turned to pity for the utter stupidity of this all.

For a few days after your show aired, I was glued. I had to figure out if there was anything in your life that I yearn for.

But I have since lost interest, and only wanted to communicate this.

You may not care, because youre inhaling your very much needed bright lights, fame and glory, and having more money than you ever imagined youd have. All things you clearly have dreamt about your whole "fundamentalist" life, living in a community, where poor you, you werent allowed to dress like a -hore.

So youre free at last.

But has it occurred to you or to any of your fans, that had Aron not been brought up in a religious environment, its more likely, than not likely, that while you sat him down to tell him what his life should look like, and how you know better, he would have responded with a huge "F--- You" and ran away, never to see you again.

Its only because of his Torah education and upbringing, that he has learned that unless a parent forces you to eat non-Kosher, even if the parent is insane, no matter what the parent does, you have to respect the parent and not talk back, and not treat the parents in a disrespectful manner.

Julia, yes there are exceptions on both sides, but by and large, youve seen lots of irreligious children and how they treat and respond to their parents. The pink and green hair and ripped jeans bearing flesh in private places, and the "you cant tell me what to do", "everything goes" behavior that goes hand in hand with it, abound.

I pity you for not realizing the difference, and being grateful for your children's Torah-taught respect, despite your very obvious disrespect of them. Your behavior towards them goes beyond anyone's boundary of acceptable behavior.

I'm totally done with this topic (unless I hear youve lowered yourself more than you already have). Is that even possible? Perhaps it is possible, for people and programs looking to shock.

amother

Navyblue

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 11:05 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

re: the part in bold.

I did not grow up frum. I didn't even grow up Jewish, but my peers and I (jewish and not) would never have spoken to an adult that way---certainly not our parents.

I'm sorry, but being frum is no guarantee that anyone is a mensch. I don't know that I believe someone is more of a mensch if they are frum vs. not.

If they are frum, it means they more likely keep shabbos, and kosher, etc etc. And it's more likely that they do those things for Hashem--recognizing it's commanded by Hashem.

But I really don't see objective evidence that people are actually guaranteed to be menschlich or not chutzpadik if they are frum---on the contrary, the most intense chutzpah I've never seen or experienced is from frum people, including kids.

I'm sure actually internalizing Torah from jewish day school would help someone do kibbud eim better, but it's chutzpah to say that's the only reason someone may be respectful of their parents.

amother

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 11:19 am

amother [ Navyblue ] wrote:

As the OP with not much experience of actually living with not frum or not Jewish people, you can imagine what youre saying is really scary to me.

Aside from frum people believing that Hashem wants us to be frum, what are the advantages of being frum, to you or anyone else, if the above is accurate?

amother

Navyblue

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 11:28 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Live truth and revealing Hashem in the world.

Also, we're more likely if we actually are practicing torah inside and out, to do what Hashem wants and have peace to the extent we can achieve.

But, if people think they are more likely to be treated with respect and not chutzpah because they are frum, they will be disappointed. Most people do not actually internalize a lot of the things that they preach.

And I converted because I knew it was my neshomah's truth, not because I thought non Jews being not Jewish means they are animals. In fact, part of my conversion was the idea that non Jews are made in Hashem's image too, are loved by Hashem, and have a mission from Hashem.

There are non Jews who are being animals and Jews, even one's who wear a levush (literally and figuratively) that portrays something else, being animals too. And the opposite is true. There are non jews living Truth and there are Jews living Truth.

Jews are fortunate to have it more clearly spelled out how to be a mensch and not an animal, but there are jerks and bullies and chutzpadik people all over. No religion or level of religious observance imho really guarantees treating one another properly en masse.

amother

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 11:32 am

amother [ Navyblue ] wrote:

Live truth and revealing Hashem in the world.

Also, we're more likely if we actually are practicing torah inside and out, to do what Hashem wants and have peace to the extent we can achieve.

But, if people think they are more likely to be treated with respect and not chutzpah because they are frum, they will be disappointed. Most people do not actually internalize a lot of the things that they preach.

And I converted because I knew it was my neshomah's truth, not because I thought non Jews being not Jewish means they are animals. In fact, part of my conversion was the idea that non Jews are made in Hashem's image too, are loved by Hashem, and have a mission from Hashem.

There are non Jews who are being animals and Jews, even one's who where a levush (literally and figuratively) that portrays something else, being animals too. And the opposite is true. There are non jews living Truth and there are Jews living Truth.

Jews are fortunate to have it more clearly spelled out how to be a mensch and not an animal, but there are jerks and bullies and chutzpadik people all over. No religion or level of religious observance imho really guarantees treating one another properly en masse.

Im having a hard time believing that most BTs and converts became more religious/converted because of "Live truth and revealing Hashem in the world." I suspect that outside of spirituality, totally unrelated to spirituality, most have a feeling that their lives will be better.

But only G-d knows.

amother

Navyblue

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 11:35 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I have never taken a survey of converts.

But, converts who have zero jewish background converting have no logical reason to do so.

Those who convert because they think life will be better, will be disappointed--I've watched this and lived this.

Those who convert because it is their Truth that only they can know, make it. Really make it. Obviously, living one's truth is better than not, but that is really the only thing to rely upon.

There is no guarantee that being frum means one will be happier or more comfortable or even a better person.

amother

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 11:46 am

amother [ Navyblue ] wrote:

Do others agree, and think BTs and Converts become and stay frum despite knowing this?

amother

Cyan

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 3:23 pm

Julia is a person with problems. Not being a shrink I can’t even guess at what they are, but clearly she’s not playing with an unscratched deck.

Working in a large secular workplace I have occasion to meet and become friends with people of different religions and ethnicities. Some might even be considered “fundamentalist” or they may consider me the same. We don’t discuss religion but we do discuss values. The people I become friendly with have several values in common. Among them: respect for one’s elders; observing but not necessarily blindly following tradition in irrelevant detail; marital fidelity; respect for authority including civil government; strong parental supervision over children and early and continuing teaching of manners and building character. Julia must have missed some of these lessons.

amother

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 4:15 pm

amother [ Slateblue ] wrote:

I agree with OP.

People who claim that there is just as much chutzpah in the frum world as those in the secular world are not being honest.

I'm not talking about little kids. I'm talking about teenage and up.

It just isnt true. Ask grandparents who have both frum and non frum grandchildren.
Our children are less exposed to filth and corruption. Hence, as a community, our children have purer language and cleaner minds than their secular counterparts.

I think so too.

I live in the middle of a very frum neighborhood with a public school nearby. The kids coming out of the public school use foul language every few words and think its hysterical, and play crazy loud boomboxes. If our kids would walk around anything like that, theyd get THROWN OUT OF SCHOOL faster than you can say Jackie Robinson.

ally

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 4:44 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

It's very unfortunate that you have been so brainwashed as to believe that only frum people can be well mannered.
It is blatantly untrue and you would know this if you interacted with non frum people or non jews.

Frum people should be frum because they believe in hashem and the Torah. People can lead perfectly moral and upstanding lives without being frum.

ally

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 4:48 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Firstly, public school in one neighborhood cannot be extrapolated to all non jews.

I used to work for an extracurricular program that had regular classes and separate boys and girls classes which were attended by frum kids. Teachers would beg not to teach the boys only classes because they were chutzpahdik and difficult to control.

How would you feel if these people - who had actual experience with such kids - went around saying all frum kids are wild and ill mannered?