Tzaar baalei chaim

Chasid

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 10:35 am

I have a question, looking for an answer for the longest time..
I'm trying to understand, you can find on YouTube hundreds and thousands of videos how people are torturing their pets and they're laughing at it! Like it's the biggest joke of their life..
Now, if it's their pet and they own it, y do it to them, don't They like them??
And why, just why would any human being do that for any living thing, just why?? Would you wanna be treated that way??
And my main question is, how is this acceptable but when the Jewish people take a chicken and all they do is spin it around their head and put it back then it's just the end of the world! I mean, that just doesn't make any sense! A lot of non Jewish people are fighting for animal rights but then they do this...

Cheiny

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 10:42 am

Chasid wrote:

Studies have shown that ppl who torture animals when they’re young often turn out to be the serial killers or murderers you read abt in the news yrs later. Anyone who tortures an animal is absolutely sick, a sociopath, not to mention cruel beyond human normalcy. There’s nothing funny much less normal abt it

amother

Seafoam

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 10:49 am

Good question op, but it seems like you're making the 2 wrongs make a right argument. If people are torturing their pets on youtube, why can't jews torture chickens for our religious rituals?

Also, I doubt anyone actually condones the torturing of pets that you see on youtube. Whereas kaporos (according to some) amounts to religious sanctioned and fully approved torture of animals. Have you seen any political or religious group come out and argue that torturing animals should be ok? Of course not. Yet with kaporos, that's sort of what we're saying.

Chasid

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 11:05 am

amother [ Seafoam ] wrote:

So what's the problem? The small enclosure?

Chasid

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 11:06 am

amother [ Calendula ] wrote:

Makes sense
And makes me somehow feel better in a way...
They are just crazy people

BH Yom Yom

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 12:20 pm

Animal abuse and torture is absolutely reprehensible. It boggles my mind how people can hurt an innocent animal for “fun” or “sport.”

Kapparos, while perhaps a bizarre experience for the chicken, is not painful. Bizarreness isn’t torture. Shchita has to be done in a way that minimizes pain and is actually more humane than the way many of the non-kosher slaughterhouses do things.

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 2:02 pm

We actually got a dog, about 5 years ago, from a local shelter, that was abused. And till this day, we always ask each other "how could anyone have abused this lovely dog"? All she does is give us love, and wet licks Smile

Its terrible how some people abuse animals. Absolutely awful.

As for kaparot, many many many people have stopped that minhag long ago and use money in its place.

amother

Opal

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 2:21 pm

The actual act of doing Kapara with a chicken is not tzar balei chaim.
However, sometimes the way the birds are caged, or taken care of, or handled, could be, and should be improved. I've seen cages dumped on a shul porch which are tiny and no room for the poor bird etc

Chasid

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 4:21 pm

amother [ Opal ] wrote:

This is definitely true, but kaparas was not my point at all...
Whatever..

Teomima

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 6:53 pm

Chasid wrote:

And my main question is, how is this acceptable but when the Jewish people take a chicken and all they do is spin it around their head and put it back then it's just the end of the world! I mean, that just doesn't make any sense! A lot of non Jewish people are fighting for animal rights but then they do this...

A: Who said it's acceptable?
B: Just because other people torture animals means we get to, too?
Not when there's perfectly acceptable alternatives. And it's not just "spin it around their head and put it back." Can you imagine if someone picked up a cat and just spun it around but said "it's okay because then I put it back"? Everyone would be calling that torture, too. Why does it being a chicken make it okay?

amother

Seafoam

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 7:19 pm

Chasid wrote:

So what's the problem? The small enclosure?

I think so. I'm not following this too closely but I think that's one of the things critics have pointed out. Trucks with hundreds of chickens are stuffed into small enclosures for many hours possibly while not being fed.

Probably not so geshmak for the chickens.

amother

Cadetblue

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 8:32 pm

amother [ Seafoam ] wrote:

Unfortunately, this is the way they treat commercially raised chickens routinely. Not unique to Kaparos at all.

Chasid

Mon, Aug 02 2021, 5:43 pm

amother [ Cadetblue ] wrote:

Unfortunately, this is the way they treat commercially raised chickens routinely. Not unique to Kaparos at all.

exactly!

how are other chickens transported and slaughtered? with golden knives?...

Kiwi13

Mon, Aug 02 2021, 5:48 pm

What do you mean by “torture?” There are some obnoxious video trends where people trick their pet so they can laugh at the pet’s reaction, such as randomly yelling “ouch!” to see if the pet will offer compassion or run away or whatever, or doing something that will spook the pet to make them jump or whatever other tasteless thing. It’s not right, but it’s not torture.

If you’re referring to something that actually causes the animal harm, I’m unaware of such videos, but that’s obviously evil.

BrachaBatya

Mon, Aug 02 2021, 5:48 pm

Animal abuse is disgusting and for a Jew to do it is a real sin.

I feel kapparot is DISGRACEFUL and horrible. Thank goodness many communities no longer participate in this barbaric excuse of a ritual.

I also feel it's wrong to eat animals. I know I am in the minority here. But I really care about all of HaShem's creatures. I don't differentiate between a chicken, a cow, a dog, a cat, a horse....all living creatures deserve a life free of cruelty and murder.

amother

White

Mon, Aug 02 2021, 7:48 pm

BrachaBatya wrote:

I would give you a hug just out of pity

amother

Lilac

Mon, Aug 02 2021, 7:53 pm

BrachaBatya wrote:

We were given the laws of shechita and we were instructed to eat meat at occasions such as korban Pesach.

If Hashem is ok with it, you should be too. Humans never have more compassion than Hashem.

FranticFrummie

Mon, Aug 02 2021, 8:22 pm

Cruelty to animals is never OK, and it's not approved in any way by the Torah. If you have animals, you have to make sure they have food and water before you're even allowed to have a cup of coffee in the morning. I have never understood chicken kapparos. I use money.

Shechita has to be done in the most humane way possible, fast and painless. Have you ever cut yourself with something so sharp that you didn't even notice there was blood until later? That's how sharp the knives have to be, and they have to be able to go through cow hide like it's tissue paper.

It's possible to get kosher, free range, organically fed meat, chicken, and eggs. It's expensive and hard to find in some places, but it's definitely possible.

As for YouTube videos, you can report them and get them taken down. The account will be deleted and the user will be banned. Everyone can do something to stop this. If there's no platform to show off on, there won't be as much incentive to do things like that.

amother

Cadetblue

Mon, Aug 02 2021, 8:53 pm

Watch kaparos done by most normal people. There is nothing remotely traumatic to the chicken going on. The chicken is gently lifted, and circled around the head. The chicken is usually calm and not hurt in any way. We're not grabbing chickens by their feet and swinging them wildly around our heads while they shriek in fear.

Are their places that don't treat Kaparos chickens right? Sadly yes, but that is not a reason to drop the entire minhag. Chickens should not be left in the hot sun, not given food or water for hours, or handled roughly.

My main gripe with kaparos done properly is when the chickens are not used after shechitah. Many will do kaparos again if their chicken is found to be treif after shechitah, I can't comprehend the level of Bal Tashchis of not then kashering those chickens and distributing them to the poor for Yom Tov meals (as I understand was the original intent).

Teomima

Tue, Aug 03 2021, 2:02 am

amother [ Lilac ] wrote:

We were given the laws of shechita and we were instructed to eat meat at occasions such as korban Pesach.

If Hashem is ok with it, you should be too. Humans never have more compassion than Hashem.

I find you to be judgmental at best and offensive at worst. What do you care if a person decides to be a vegetarian? BrachaBatya shared what she feels, for herself. She didn't criticize other people eating meat. Why are meat eaters so quick to be offended by vegetarians?