S/O Do BTs become frum mainly to Live truth and reveal Hashe

amother

Darkblue

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 6:32 pm

Notably, an OTD or BT may have had trauma which made them seek something else, but then they can genuinely become connected with what they found. It doesn't mean their lives are disingenuous.

amother

Darkblue

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 6:34 pm

Zehava wrote:

Only one I can think of, shulem deen. The rest is all trauma.

One out of how many? Unless you run an OTD database it's safe to assume you don't know all OTD men and women. However, I do agree with your general premise.

Zehava

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 6:35 pm

amother [ Darkblue ] wrote:

Notably, an OTD or BT may have had trauma which made them seek something else, but then they can genuinely become connected with what they found. It doesn't mean their lives are disingenuous.

They can. It’s a toss-up whether or not they’ll be able to heal enough to truly be able to integrate and enjoy their newfound life. I know both otds and BTs who managed and those who didn’t.

Zehava

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 6:36 pm

amother [ Darkblue ] wrote:

One out of how many? Unless you run an OTD database it's safe to assume you don't know all OTD men and women. However, I do agree with your general premise.

Ofcourse not all. But many.

amother

Holly

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 6:38 pm

I became frum because I was searching for the emes. I didn’t think about what my future children would be like at all. I just focused on figuring out what was ultimately true and good, and I pursued that path wholeheartedly once I found it.

My dh became interested in Yiddishkeit because he was lonely and liked kiruvy Shabbos dinners. He ended up becoming frum because he saw it was true. He didn’t give much thought to fatherhood and children until we b”H started our family.

None of the BTs I know (and I know many) were focused on Yiddishkeit as a way to produce better kids. In fact many of us find it’s very hard to raise our kids in this frum culture that tolerates a lot of chutzpah.

BrisketBoss

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 6:46 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Please clarify.

To generalize--because I love generalizing--men are more into philosophy and science than we are. And if an older frum boy or man discovers scientific and philosophical material that seems to contrast with what he learned and he can't reconcile it, and no one he asks can reconcile it to his satisfaction, he may find it overly difficult to deal with the cognitive dissonance of living a frum life when his religion appears false to him on a fundamental level.

amother

Lime

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 6:58 pm

my dh became frum because he felt it was emes. He went to aish in israel and he has said that if not for the fact that he had decided BEFORE he went to become frum, it would have turned him off. It sounded like drugs, do this and you'll be happy. Life just doesn't work like that.

Unfortunately he has been very turned off by the frum community and doesn't trust them. He has not found that the middos in the frum community are any better then elsewhere. The only reason he stays frum is because he thinks as a jew he is commanded to keep the mitzvos. Otherwise he wouldn't.

His sisters became frum as well and one of them after quite a few years chose to go back to being "conservative", the frum world couldn't keep her, I don't think she felt yidishkeit was worth it, worth the tuition, worth not traveling on shabbos.... It could be that for some people they become frum because it feels good but I don't think in the long run that can keep them.

amother

Black

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 7:00 pm

I think many BT become frum because they like the lifestyle, shabbos family atmosphere, etc. Was true for me. Of course, then the reality hits lol.

Laiya

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 7:00 pm

Zehava wrote:

The same reason people go otd or make any other big lifestyle change. To escape trauma and find happiness elsewhere.

Escaping trauma might be a reason, another reason is inconsistency. The inconsistency (ex. eating treif outside but not inside) prompts them to ask questions. Same for people going OTD or drastically switching communities.

Zehava

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 7:19 pm

Laiya wrote:

Right. Hypocrisy is a factor. But I find that as humans we are self-centered creatures of habit. So it’s rather events in our own personal lives than communal problems that will drive us to upend our lives in such a drastic way.

BrisketBoss

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 7:28 pm

Zehava wrote:

For me it was very personal but not trauma. It was definitely a huge change and I'm definitely a creature of habit. So I vote for love as another great motivator. I always liked that story we studied in school about a Jewish guy who goes to see a lady of the night but his tzitzis whack him in the face and he can't go through with it, and she's so impressed that she converts and marries him. That's great stuff.

Zehava

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 7:35 pm

BrisketBoss wrote:

That is a strange story to learn in school

amother

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 7:37 pm

BrisketBoss wrote:

Which school taught that?

This thread is getting very interesting.

BrisketBoss

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 7:40 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Which school taught that?

This thread is getting very interesting.

Haha it was a non-Orthodox Jewish day school. I think they were trying to keep our interest by teaching us the fun stuff. Wink

I believe I learned this story at least 2-3 times (altogether) throughout middle school, high school, and college, as well as the gemara about תורה היא וללמוד אני צריך and the one about how often husbands of different occupations are obligated in onah.

(The strange story I described is from gemara too. And I can think of gemaras that would be stranger to learn in school than that one, believe me.)

I really liked Jewish day school; that was definitely another factor in my willingness to try out being frum.

Last edited by BrisketBoss on Sun, Aug 01 2021, 8:22 pm; edited 3 times in total

amother

Mintgreen

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 7:52 pm

Zehava wrote:

I don't think it's always as dramatic as you make it seem. Not everyone has some crazy 180 BT story. Personally I became frum because my grandparents are frum. My mom went OTD when she was in her late teens, but Judaism was always very important to her. It felt pretty natural to me to become frum, and my mom has always been supportive of it. No drama. No fights. No trauma. BH.

BrisketBoss

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 7:53 pm

amother [ Mintgreen ] wrote:

That's awesome!

Zehava

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 8:04 pm

amother [ Mintgreen ] wrote:

That is another important factor
Conversely I know more than one BT family where many of the kids went otd. In one case the parents ended up divorcing and the mom followed suit. We’re talking real 180.

TriAspora

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 8:12 pm

Young idealistic people - men and women - can be strong enough to upend their lives for the right cause. My friends and I were driven by search for answers to existential questions about G-d, uniqueness of Jewish history, antisemitism, etc. Having kids (well behaved or not) was very far from our minds Smile

The social aspect was actually a bit of a turn off for me, since I did not feel a pull towards the particular derech of my first teachers. I respected and admired them, but did not want to be as insular or ideoligically rigid, and there were no other role models at the time. Some minor things were also not up my alley: frum fashion, pop music, wigs and even kugel! Still, Torah is Emes, and I am very grateful to all who taught us. A long difficult road lay ahead, especially challening for the children. There were moments when I felt like leaving - to make it easier for the kids, actually. But Torah is Emes, so we soldier on.

amother

Honey

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 8:19 pm

Zehava wrote:

Only one I can think of, shulem deen. The rest is all trauma.

I don't think you know many OTD men.
They can be intellectual even if they didn't publish a book about why they left.

Last edited by amother on Tue, Dec 21 2021, 1:59 pm; edited 1 time in total