S/O Do BTs become frum mainly to Live truth and reveal Hashe

PinkFridge

Mon, Aug 02 2021, 10:37 am

Zehava wrote:

Yeah he did, though nothing close to the trauma of the others I know.
But he describes his intellectual process in depth and it makes sense. He’s very logical about his whole journey. So probably trauma played a role but so did intellect.
The other men I know didn’t think it through nearly as deeply as he did.

Trying to remember Deen's story. I think that's what I meant by educational trauma - being dismissed disrespected, disenfranchised for questioning. Or for some, not getting the skills they needed at some point and then the dis cycle starts for them.

PinkFridge

Mon, Aug 02 2021, 10:38 am

Zehava wrote:

I’m saying what I see and what I know. FTR if you read many otd memoirs they also claim to have had questions and therefor did research and concluded that the truth lies elsewhere or that there is no truth.
But the facts on the ground are they I see a disproportionate amount of heavy trauma in both populations, BT and OTD. I also see broken family ties in many instances.
I think as human beings we lead with our instincts and emotions more than our intellect most of the time, even if subconsciously. That’s just my hypothesis. Feel free to disagree.

Not my generation of BTs. Especially since a lot of them had traditional grandparents or even parents.

PinkFridge

Mon, Aug 02 2021, 10:40 am

Zehava wrote:

That is one cruel catalyst. One that leaves you with lifelong scars even in the best of circumstances. Even those that seem to have “risen above” and are successful, struggle with CPTSD every day. Not to mention those that succumb to addiction and mental illness because of it.
That same catalyst is a catalyst for crime, further abuse, addiction, personality disorders, and so much more.
All so some people can reinvent themselves?

Is there a middle ground then? Man was not put into this world to lie in bed with a good book and eat bonbons 24/7. (Woman otoh, but I digress.) Life is challenge which means growth which means satisfaction from accomplishment. Life is stretching ourselves to grow and to give.

PinkFridge

Mon, Aug 02 2021, 10:47 am

imaima wrote:

Is that great stuff? Oh well.

This is re the story of the tzitzis and great stuff.
Yitzchak smelled the aroma of Yaakov's clothes, the rai'ach bgadav. Chazal say, vowelize it as bogdav, his traitors. There are INCREDIBLE stories of our "traitors."
Yosef Meshisa, who had abandoned everything and was told he could raid the Bais Hamikdash after the churban. He came out with the menorah. He was told to go get something else. He said, "I already went in once. Even I can't do it again." IIRC he was killed. This, according to chazal, it was Yaakov smelled.

There was a powerful story told in Hamodia by Rabbi Lau's son (also a rav, shlita to them both). I'm not going to do it justice. The Jews of a certain village were herded into a shul by the Nazis. The Nazis forced the rav to unroll a Torah and ordered someone to urinate on it. There was a man in the community who was somewhere beyond OTD. He had his sha'a achas that got him into Olam Haba when he refused and was killed al kiddush Hashem Hyd.

The idea of the tzitzis story is that moment of redemption. Like many righteous people who converted, that woman had her moment of clarity when she realized that no one was beyond redemption. Do they all get second chances? Not always. But they all have that incredible aroma.

PinkFridge

Mon, Aug 02 2021, 10:48 am

amother [ Turquoise ] wrote:

Yes Zahava, I believe in God, that He only does good, and even the pain of trauma is ultimately a gift of love. And yes, I believe that all that pain is in place to propel people to find Him. If we were never in darkness, we wouldn't search for the light. I am one of those people with PTSD from a broken childhood, and I know that God and I planned this path for me to Him, and I thank Him for the pain and pleasure of my life. I know that this is the life I chose before entering this world, for my soul's unique tikkun. I believe my trauma and my decisions to commit to God on a greater level are intertwined, and my story is unfolding exactly the way it is supposed to. And now I will sign off, good night, and always blessings to you on your journey of healing!

https://www.amazon.com/Blessin.....41512
www.theazifoundation.org

PinkFridge

Mon, Aug 02 2021, 10:51 am

amother [ Turquoise ] wrote:

God sends trauma to direct people to Him. Through the darkness one is forced to search for light. Every person has the choice to use his life's circumstances to draw closer or further from spirituality, but God only does good. God does all for our benifit, to draw us to grow closer to Him. Good night Honeymoon, all the best to you!!

And here's some more:
https://www.artscroll.com/Book......html

Join Nach Yomi! We're nearly a third of a way through Iyov. Great timing to hop aboard.

PinkFridge

Mon, Aug 02 2021, 10:52 am

honeymoon wrote:

You seem like a person who used your trauma to come closer to God. Kudos to you. Unfortunately, it doesn't turn out that way for everyone and it is not our place to pass judgement.
Good night to you too.

I don't think ANYONE passes judgment, even if these perspectives come more naturally.

PinkFridge

Mon, Aug 02 2021, 10:57 am

icedcoffee wrote:

I'm a bit late to this thread but most BTs I know in the MO community became religious after some sort of kiruv or exposure to a frum lifestyle. I know a lot of people who went on Israel trips in college and came back wearing long sleeves and skirts, or people who got very involved in the campus Chabad, or parents who did a Shavuot program and slowly decided to become BT as a family.

As others have mentioned it's often not a dramatic shift from one extreme to the other. For example, for me, I grew up Conservative and "kept kosher" in that we only ate dairy out. We "kept shabbat" in that we said kiddush and hamotzi but would watch TV and drive places. I remember once asking my mom why my friend's family didn't use electricity on shabbat but we did, and my mom said "because they're Orthodox and we're not." As a child that felt alright but as I got older I realized how unsatisfactory that answer was for me. So it was a combination of education and meeting lots of Orthodox people in college who showed me the beauty of a more religious life. It didn't feel like an enormous change, but rather gradually taking on more. That's the most common trajectory I've seen, among MO people at least.

I just deleted my comment which was based on a total misreading. There's an exchange between iced coffee and me later where she quotes my comment. Let me just say instead, I like this post.

Last edited by PinkFridge on Mon, Aug 02 2021, 1:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

Zehava

Mon, Aug 02 2021, 11:08 am

PinkFridge wrote:

The classic OTD example, and RL it's often true, is some sort of abuse. Physical, emotional, educational, whatever it might be. I don't think that's true of BTs. They might often have some aspects of their lives they're happy to say goodbye to but trauma just doesn't seem the most logical word to use.

I think that’s what people would like to think

Zehava

Mon, Aug 02 2021, 11:12 am

PinkFridge wrote:

There is challenge that helps you grow, discomfort and even pain with support and backbone in place, and then there’s trauma, something that overwhelms your nervous system and puts you in a fight for survival. In a child it literally hinders growth because the brain can’t learn when it’s focused on survival.

PinkFridge

Mon, Aug 02 2021, 11:22 am

amother [ Brass ] wrote:

82 ka'h (he became frum before the days there was a real kiruv movement) Why caused you to ask?

I had a hunch he was older. Because I know BTs my age (50s) and many of them had some background, Hebrew literacy, etc. I figured he was at least my age, probably older.

PinkFridge

Mon, Aug 02 2021, 11:23 am

Zehava wrote:

Good point.

amother

Darkblue

Mon, Aug 02 2021, 11:25 am

Zehava wrote:

I think that’s what people would like to think

Anyone with an IQ of 80 understands that to drastically change your life in any way there must have been a catalyst, but that catalyst doesn't need to define you for life. Are you more than your trauma or does that need to be what I share about you or anyone else when I introduce them to someone new.

Zehava

Mon, Aug 02 2021, 11:31 am

amother [ Darkblue ] wrote:

Am I introducing BTs or OTDs here or did the op ask what the reason for the life change was

amother

Calendula

Mon, Aug 02 2021, 11:37 am

I contemplated leaving Yiddishkeit and acted on it a bit. Ultimately what made me commit to yiddishkeit wasn't that it was true (bec I wasn't sure) it was that it made me happy (even though it felt too restrictive at times) it gave my life meaning.

nchr

Mon, Aug 02 2021, 11:40 am

There is a saying that otd people often say they left because of petch but we never heard someone say they became erlich because of petch. I have no clue since I don't have exposure to enough people to comment but it's not important to me.

It sounds like the op has her own struggles and has told herself that she is staying erlich so she will have good, respectful children. This explanation is protecting her from facing whatever pain makes her question it. The answer isn't to go find out why people are erlich but to heal your own pain.

I have many such wrong black and white conclusions in my life and breaking them apart has helped me understand myself.

amother

Camellia

Mon, Aug 02 2021, 11:56 am

My parents are BT.
I don't think they did it to have good kids Smile

My father drew close to authentic yiddishkeit, did that the niggunim of shul (some of which he remembered as a conservative type youth) awakened him. He also loved seudos, etc.
If you speak to my mother, you will definitely hear her talk abt how Torah is emes, and we're here in this world to improve ourselves and make a kiddush hashem.
My father would say the same.

I am an FFB, went to the frummest of the frum schools, and I can say without a doubt that my parents' emunah and closeness to And awareness of Hashem is lightyears ahead of mine.

Halevai I should grow to be like my choshuve parents.