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What's the source for naming after a relative?
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amother




Obsidian
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 5:19 am
amother [ Red ] wrote:
Yes, the reason we do it is actually to honor the living relatives of that person. It is a very serious minhag and I'm appalled you are making issue with it. If you have a personal shaila, ask a rav. That doesn't mean it is a bad minhag.

Source?
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amother




OP
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 5:34 am
thanks wrote:
It's nothing to be appealed about. Noone is upset about the MI hag, it about the machlokes people create.

Do you know where the name shneur comes from? There were 2 grandfathers meir. Hence, she-Ohr. Today if anybody did that, both sides would get angry and say they did not get the name. Yet, it's considered a perfectly valid and chashuv name.
Also, it was only a few generations ago that names like Baila, feigy, shprintzy, frummy, etc were made up. All the Yiddish names are from about 500- 1000 years ago. Imagine making up a new name today. When did this become such a serious minhag that people should pressure and fight about?


thanks, thanks. that's fascinating about Shneur. never heard that.

for sure all the yiddish names are newish. makes me think how they all had the guts to not name the regular avos v'imahos names and anger their parents/grandparents. unlesssss, naming after a grandparent (no matter what) is a more recent "minhag".

when adding a name to a relatives name to help yourself like it, it should still be the same honor and technically is the same perpetuation of the relative's name and memory. I don't see why a parent shouldn't have that option.

btw, dh doesn't care much about the name either way.
I have an atypical name in my family (one that's a notoriously unpretty name) I wonder what he'll say if I once insist on using just that name because I want to satisfy my grand/parents.
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amother




Blushpink
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 5:46 am
when we named our baby, we asked our rav. He said first and foremost to choose a name I like. If we want to name after, it’s a mitzva of kibud Av v’eim
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amother




Goldenrod
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 6:03 am
agreer wrote:
If you really want a source, it's part of "Kabed es Avicha v'es Imecha". I have the Artscroll book on Kibbud Av V'em and it's in there.

That's why Ashkenazim name after the dead - to give their parents satisfaction of knowing their relatives will not be forgotten, and Sfardim name after their own living parents - it's a huge source of nachas.

These are time-honored customs dating back centuries. Yes, in Tanach they didn't do this, but for the last few hundred years, both Ashkenazim and Sfardim named after relatives as a way of honoring their parents.

The idea of choosing a name is actually a newfangled concept nowadays, and everyone who thinks it's "their right" is missing sensitivity to the mesorah. Yes, the parents have ruach hakodesh in choosing the name, but choosing a familial name doesn't lessen the ruach hakodesh. I find it so, so arrogant that women think they have a right to choose their own name because they carried the baby for 9 months... well, who cared for you and supported you for 18/20/25 years? Who paid for your wedding? Don't they deserve the best form of comfort and honor?

If your parents don't care, then fine...choose your own name, gezunteheit...and THANK THOSE PARENTS OF YOURS! And if you want your own children to choose their own names, then be this type of parent.

But if your parents do care, or one of the spouses does care, then yes...it is a MITZVAH to honor your parents by choosing a name of their relative.


This is fascinating to me. Would you mind to copy the excerpt where it says that?
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amother




Papayawhip
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 6:08 am
I love how people are so insistent it has real sources. It’s actually not honoring the dead. It’s honoring the people related to the dead who care, that’s all.
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amother




DarkYellow
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 6:17 am
My last baby my husband and I choose a name that we liked (I liked one but my husband wanted a second name so we did a double name). I had a horrible pregnancy, 9 months of hg and wasn't gonna get pressured into naming a name we didn't love. Ppl were def surprised and to this day ppl asked who he's named after and I say we liked the name... they sometimes say oh wow so nice u don't have anyone to name for , which isnt true there were great grandparents or grandparents that we never knew or met. But whats wrong with naming a name you love- you're the mother, you carried the baby and will be raising them. Dont care so much about what others will think
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amother




Feverfew
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 6:18 am
We were definitely told that adding a name to the person's name lessens it, and that sometimes it is necessary to do. I imagine that's what your dh was told, vs "You can't add a name because she likes it"- that it changes the naming. But our rav told us you do it anyway if a) one or both spouses hates the name, or the child will get teased, because those can cause enough problems that are bigger than the lessening, or b) you have a reason to want the naming factor lessened a bit- naming for someone who died young, or wasn't shomer mitzvos.

I genuinely think this warrants an in person sit down with your rav and both of you, to discuss the issue.
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amother




DarkOrange
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 6:19 am
agreer wrote:
I find it so, so arrogant that women think they have a right to choose their own name because they carried the baby for 9 months... well, who cared for you and supported you for 18/20/25 years? Who paid for your wedding? Don't they deserve the best form of comfort and honor?



And what of those of us who had abusive parents, who didn't care and support us for 18/20/25 years, and didn't pay for our weddings? Are we still arrogant to want to name our own babies who we carry for 9 months?
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amother




Cadetblue
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 6:23 am
Donyo not have another name from your husband's side you can give?
Even if it's further up the family tree.


Last edited by amother on Tue, Dec 21 2021, 5:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother




Vermilion
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 6:26 am
In our case, we had a relative who had a name I really didn't like and for various reasons we weren't even sure if we could use the name. My husband asked a Rav if we are allowed to use the name halachically and the Rav said yes. My husband already told my father that we plan to give the name before we discussed it so we didn't have a choice after that. I was so upset and had a hard time looking at or loving the baby for the first week due to the negative association with the name. Eventually we started using a nickname and I was able to love my child. Very important to give a name you like! I didn't realize how much it impacts your love to that child and its not fair to him or her.
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Chayalle




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 6:38 am
amother [ Feverfew ] wrote:
We were definitely told that adding a name to the person's name lessens it, and that sometimes it is necessary to do. I imagine that's what your dh was told, vs "You can't add a name because she likes it"- that it changes the naming. But our rav told us you do it anyway if a) one or both spouses hates the name, or the child will get teased, because those can cause enough problems that are bigger than the lessening, or b) you have a reason to want the naming factor lessened a bit- naming for someone who died young, or wasn't shomer mitzvos.

I genuinely think this warrants an in person sit down with your rav and both of you, to discuss the issue.


our Rav told us that if we are naming after someone, we should name that name, and nothing else. He also said that half the name is not naming after someone. For this reason, my oldest DD is named after one of the Imahos. I wanted to name her after my grandmother A"H, but my grandmother's 2nd name was the same as my MIL A"H who was still living then. The other name was the same as one of the Imahos, so I named DD that name, and it's just a memory of my grandmother, but not stricly named after her. However I do feel we gave her a name with a special connection.


In terms of a source, OP, this is more along the lines of drash, but our high school teacher taught us the Pasuk where Yaakov Avinu fights with the Malach of Eisav and wins, and he asks him "Hagidah na li ma shimecha" - please tell me your name. The Malach answers "Lamah Zeh Tish'al L'shmi" - what do you need to know my name for? And he doesn't actually tell him his name.

There are many midrashim on this exchange of words. My teacher told us that the names of angels reveal the strength of that angel. Like the malach refoel can heal, etc...and Yaakov was asking the angel to reveal the source of his strength, because then he would know how he can be controlled and fought for future generations. And the Malach answered him that he is a Malach with no defined name. He is the Malach of Eisav, and he changes his name in every generation - he is always a new source and a new type of enmity that the descendents of Yaakov have to learn to deal with.

She went into the whole concept of names then, and told us then that there is a concept that when we name our children after someone, we give them a connection to that person, and the ability for that person to have an influence on their life. It's not just about remembering them, it's a spiritual connection. That's why we want to name our children after someone who is special to us, someone we WANT should have a connection with our child. (she bought sources, but I don't remember who said this.)

She had us do a report about our names, why we were named that name, and if after someone, to find out about that person. I'm named for my great-grandmother H"YD, and when I asked questions about her, I was told some pretty awesome things that I very much relate to personally. I'm amazed that this woman whose life was sadly cut short so young, but whose son B"H survived to become my grandfather, now has a connection with me. I'm honored by that link, and I'm glad my parents gave me her name.

(I'm pretty honored to have a few nieces who have the same name as me, named after my great-grandmother too. My SIL told me she chose that name cuz I turned out alright, so she figures it's a good name to give. I was very touched!)
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Chayalle




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 6:43 am
amother [ Papayawhip ] wrote:
I love how people are so insistent it has real sources. It’s actually not honoring the dead. It’s honoring the people related to the dead who care, that’s all.


My extended family is overwhelmingly girly. I remember when one nephew was born, it had been 8 years since my maternal grandfather had passed away, with no boys born in the family to be named after him. However, my paternal grandfather had recently passed away.

My sister called R' Shmuel Kaminetsky and asked him which name to give. He said to give the name of my paternal grandfather, his reason being, that grandmother was still living, and it would give her comfort to hear the name. This despite the fact that there were likely to be more names after him in the long run (my mother A"H was an only child, and my father was not, so there are much more grandchildren coming from my father's side).

So I do think it's about honoring the living.
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amother




RosePink
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 6:45 am
amother [ Papayawhip ] wrote:
I love how people are so insistent it has real sources. It’s actually not honoring the dead. It’s honoring the people related to the dead who care, that’s all.


That’s bad for me then. I don’t have living relatives to honor. I did it for aliyas neshama. That’s for telling me that has no sources. Funnily enough, our Rav felt otherwise.
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amother




Canary
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 8:46 am
thanks wrote:
It's nothing to be appealed about. Noone is upset about the MI hag, it about the machlokes people create.

Do you know where the name shneur comes from? There were 2 grandfathers meir. Hence, she-Ohr. Today if anybody did that, both sides would get angry and say they did not get the name. Yet, it's considered a perfectly valid and chashuv name.
Also, it was only a few generations ago that names like Baila, feigy, shprintzy, frummy, etc were made up. All the Yiddish names are from about 500- 1000 years ago. Imagine making up a new name today. When did this become such a serious minhag that people should pressure and fight about?


I agree completely that it's silly to pretend that every Jewish name goes back thousands of years. And all this talk of having to give the full name or else it doesn't count is utterly unsourced.

Just to be correct, though, the origin of Shneur is almost certainly not from Shnei Or. It's true that the Maharshal tells the story of a child with grandfathers named Meir and Yair, and the compromise was Shneur, but the name was in use well before then, and probably derived from Senior. Also, linguistically, the new name would have to be שני אורות, or שני מאורות, not Shnei Or.
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amother




Lilac
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 8:56 am
I'm at work and don't have time for a full response, however.
We are heimish and were in similar position. We asked our dayan if there's a source for this. He said it's nice minhag but no actual source. We just said thank you, we didn't ask for actual advice just if there was a source.
When the baby was born, my husband and I both wanted to name a specific name, not after a relative. We called our Rabbi, who said ok, give the name and may it be with mazel. My husband did get some flack, but he just said my Rabbi gave us a bracha on this name. My parents were too tactful to say anything.
OP, people will get over it. You would be stuck calling your child a name you don't love. Think about it.
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amother




Magnolia
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 11:01 am
My friend had a very similar situation and it was really really hard for them.
Like the whole 9 yards. Parents only consider it naming after if you do the full names, every sibling already has that name, whole pregnancy talked about how excited they were and that it was obvious that they’d be naming after whoever...
And guess what? they talked to their rabbi and decided also themselves that they had a different meaningful name and it was just the right name for the baby once it was born.
And they got so much flak and still do! One of the parents even said to them recently how they just feel so sad that they didn’t name after their parent. Like what even??!! My friend just kept repeating that she’s sorry but this was the name that fit their baby.

They did it! And so can you!!!
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Chayalle




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 11:07 am
amother [ RosePink ] wrote:
That’s bad for me then. I don’t have living relatives to honor. I did it for aliyas neshama. That’s for telling me that has no sources. Funnily enough, our Rav felt otherwise.


Why can't it be both? I've heard it both ways - to honor the living. And to form a connection with the departed.

In your case, YOU are the living, and you can give to yourself by choosing a name that is meaningful to you.


Years ago I remember shmoozing with a woman in the park while our kids played...and she told me she wanted to name her 2nd child a certain name....and her husband thought they must name after a relative. He went to his Rebbe, who told him when he carries a child for 9 months and goes thru labor, he can come back to him with his name choice. But for now, let your wife choose. So there's definitely those who give credit to the woman's choice as well.
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amother




Dill
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 11:11 am
just came on her to say dh saw in a sefer once, that overall discussing names while pregnant is not good for the bearing child. names are not just the way you're called, talking neshamas.
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amother




Orange
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 11:16 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I wish I could do what y'all suggest. I wish I was the one in shul whispering the name into the Rabbi's ear, but I'm not. also, since the name is on dh's side he'll be the one suffering if I put my foot down. his family won't let him hear the end of it. It's so unfair.
I thought long and hard and did some digging, there isn't even one nickname that could make the name more palatable to me.

so, I'm curious is there a source for this or is it just pressure and kavod-seeking from parents (who already got to name their own children...)


I know how you feel, and I felt the same way when I was finally finally pregnant with my first child.

In the end, I named after my DH's side, and I made the right decision. It's something you look back on, 20 years later, and realize you did the right thing. But where I was, 20 years ago, this isn't something you really understand. I disliked the name for quite a few years, until my child grew into the name, and I'm proud the child has it.

There's a lot of pain in losing a parent. Sometimes the only way a pain can feel less is by thinking there's someone else with the name if your father walking around. Or your mother. You don't get over missing your parents, ever. Sometimes the pain is less, sometimes it rebounds in the strangest times. A new baby is one of those times. And by the time it happens, it's too late to name your own child that way.

If you're talking about a great-grandfather, I understand your concern. Or a distant cousin, etc. I will say that I wish you lots of children, so that you get a chance to name at least two of them the most outlandish, unique name you ever wanted.
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Chayalle




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 11:19 am
amother [ Dill ] wrote:
just came on her to say dh saw in a sefer once, that overall discussing names while pregnant is not good for the bearing child. names are not just the way you're called, talking neshamas.


And we are very into choosing the name (one for each gender, since we opted not to find out) before the baby is born and the opinions pour in.
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