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What's the source for naming after a relative?
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imaima




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 11:45 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I wish I could do what y'all suggest. I wish I was the one in shul whispering the name into the Rabbi's ear, but I'm not. also, since the name is on dh's side he'll be the one suffering if I put my foot down. his family won't let him hear the end of it. It's so unfair.
I thought long and hard and did some digging, there isn't even one nickname that could make the name more palatable to me.

so, I'm curious is there a source for this or is it just pressure and kavod-seeking from parents (who already got to name their own children...)


A source won't help you. It is a shalom bayis issue.
People don't usually need a source to understand why they name for a relative.
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imaima




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 11:54 am
agreer wrote:
If you really want a source, it's part of "Kabed es Avicha v'es Imecha". I have the Artscroll book on Kibbud Av V'em and it's in there.

That's why Ashkenazim name after the dead - to give their parents satisfaction of knowing their relatives will not be forgotten, and Sfardim name after their own living parents - it's a huge source of nachas.

These are time-honored customs dating back centuries. Yes, in Tanach they didn't do this, but for the last few hundred years, both Ashkenazim and Sfardim named after relatives as a way of honoring their parents.

The idea of choosing a name is actually a newfangled concept nowadays, and everyone who thinks it's "their right" is missing sensitivity to the mesorah. Yes, the parents have ruach hakodesh in choosing the name, but choosing a familial name doesn't lessen the ruach hakodesh. I find it so, so arrogant that women think they have a right to choose their own name because they carried the baby for 9 months... well, who cared for you and supported you for 18/20/25 years? Who paid for your wedding? Don't they deserve the best form of comfort and honor?

If your parents don't care, then fine...choose your own name, gezunteheit...and THANK THOSE PARENTS OF YOURS! And if you want your own children to choose their own names, then be this type of parent.

But if your parents do care, or one of the spouses does care, then yes...it is a MITZVAH to honor your parents by choosing a name of their relative.


Sorry make no sense to me. A parent should put in any effort to build bond with the child who they will care for for 18/20/25 days. Including giving a name that makes sense to them. It may or may not be the name of a deceased relative.
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amother




Chicory
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 12:04 pm
amother [ Lilac ] wrote:
I'm at work and don't have time for a full response, however.
We are heimish and were in similar position. We asked our dayan if there's a source for this. He said it's nice minhag but no actual source. We just said thank you, we didn't ask for actual advice just if there was a source.
When the baby was born, my husband and I both wanted to name a specific name, not after a relative. We called our Rabbi, who said ok, give the name and may it be with mazel. My husband did get some flack, but he just said my Rabbi gave us a bracha on this name. My parents were too tactful to say anything.
OP, people will get over it. You would be stuck calling your child a name you don't love. Think about it.


Had a similar situation, I decided we should name a baby after dh's faternal grandfather. His parents are divorced though so his mother and grandma dared to speak up how unhappy they were that that particular gf was honoured.

I am still steaming about it.
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amother




OP
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 12:13 pm
Chayalle wrote:
Why can't it be both? I've heard it both ways - to honor the living. And to form a connection with the departed.

In your case, YOU are the living, and you can give to yourself by choosing a name that is meaningful to you.


Years ago I remember shmoozing with a woman in the park while our kids played...and she told me she wanted to name her 2nd child a certain name....and her husband thought they must name after a relative. He went to his Rebbe, who told him when he carries a child for 9 months and goes thru labor, he can come back to him with his name choice. But for now, let your wife choose. So there's definitely those who give credit to the woman's choice as well.
[b]

THIS!!!
I will 100% take dh into account (we will make the decision together) but I'm trying to be convinced why I have to make sure every grandmother and grandfather gets to have a say and an opinion.
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amother




OP
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 12:15 pm
imaima wrote:
A source won't help you. It is a shalom bayis issue.
People don't usually need a source to understand why they name for a relative.


right, those that are privileged to give after a person they respected or loved, or a name they like...
that's not always the case.

it's not a shalom bayis issue for us, the parents. DH doesn't care one way or another but is scared of his relatives and the backlash he'll get if he does what I want rather than what they want.

I'll gladly give the name if I can add another to it. I did that on my side when I didn't like the name and too bad.
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amother




Blonde
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 12:16 pm
Grandparents do not have a right to choose a name for their grandchild. They also do not have a right to get upset at their adult children for choosing a name they don’t like. Anyone who says otherwise is deluding themselves.
They being said, you can be nice and considerate of parents’ preferences when naming your child. If you want to be.
If the name is an issue between you and your dh, work it out between yourselves and leave parents out of it, where they belong.
And if you do consult a rabbi, the two of you should probably speak to him together so that he hears your side as well.
B’shaah Tova!
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imaima




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 12:18 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
[b]

THIS!!!
I will 100% take dh into account (we will make the decision together) but I'm trying to be convinced why I have to make sure every grandmother and grandfather gets to have a say and an opinion.


You won't be convinced, there is no such source that grandparents have a say.
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imaima




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 12:29 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
right, those that are privileged to give after a person they respected or loved, or a name they like...
that's not always the case.

it's not a shalom bayis issue for us, the parents. DH doesn't care one way or another but is scared of his relatives and the backlash he'll get if he does what I want rather than what they want.

I'll gladly give the name if I can add another to it. I did that on my side when I didn't like the name and too bad.


It is a shalom bayis issue because he scared to make them upset more than he is scared to make you upset. It is on you two to work out a scheme. Adding a name or not. But you need to make yourself heard.
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amother




Seagreen
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 12:36 pm
You wouldn't be here asking this question if the name held meaning to your dh or even the inlaws and grandparents alive themselves held meaning to dh. The fact of fear being the motivator tells that there is not healthy relationships.

I can't tell you advice that would satisfy everything but that I empathise tremendously with you, I was in your shoes.

There is only losers once the situation is so unhealthy, somebody gets hurt & it never goes away fully. The only thing to take from it is don't grow up to be those inlaws.
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amother




Lightgray
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 2:51 pm
Different situation but my father in law refused to let me use a certain name. Our rav told us try to talk to them and make peace. We negotiated. I did not give that name. This child I have lots of nachas from. I felt my mazal changed since we gave the name. Can you call the baby by a cute nickname? That's what we have with my oldest. Grandparent until today shower that grandchild with silver and jewelry belonging to the person named after. With alot of love each time.
Both names alo grew on me as the child grew.
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amother




OP
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 3:09 pm
honestly, the person that would want this name given is not the type to shower anyone with anything. they just want/expect what they want and that's where it starts and ends. and if you don't give it to them you need to apologize ten times and excuse yourself and still they'll hold it against you.
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amother




Papayawhip
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 3:12 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
honestly, the person that would want this name given is not the type to shower anyone with anything. they just want/expect what they want and that's where it starts and ends. and if you don't give it to them you need to apologize ten times and excuse yourself and still they'll hold it against you.


Just ignore them. It’s best to show this person that you won’t be controlled or treated badly. Otherwise you face a lifetime of giving into all their abusive behavior.
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amother




NeonOrange
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 4:02 pm
amother [ Lightgray ] wrote:
Different situation but my father in law refused to let me use a certain name. Our rav told us try to talk to them and make peace. We negotiated. I did not give that name. This child I have lots of nachas from. I felt my mazal changed since we gave the name. Can you call the baby by a cute nickname? That's what we have with my oldest. Grandparent until today shower that grandchild with silver and jewelry belonging to the person named after. With alot of love each time.
Both names alo grew on me as the child grew.


Um, what?

Your Fil did not let you use a name?

You negotiated? How exactly do you work out such a situation?

And it's not right for your in laws to show outright favouritism to this child.

The whole situation is off. Nothing to be proud of.
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amother




Goldenrod
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 4:33 pm
amother [ Dill ] wrote:
just came on her to say dh saw in a sefer once, that overall discussing names while pregnant is not good for the bearing child. names are not just the way you're called, talking neshamas.


Would you mind to ask ur DH where I can see this inside
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amother




Wheat
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 6:01 pm
I vaguely remember a section in a history book by Ken Spiro (Crash Course in Jewish History) where he mentions when naming after deceased relatives started. There are ancient Jewish documents that show this, things like contracts where people used names of ancestors, I.e. son of so and so, the son of so and so where you could see the grandson had the same name as his grandfather, or see family names that repeated (because no such things as last names yet, so that's how people identified themselves on formal documents). I don't remember exactly when but it was definitely longer ago than 500 years. Probably closer to 1,000-2,000. Maybe in ancient Babylonian times? When I get a chance I'll look it up. I remember it was very interesting.
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amother




Yellow
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 8:23 pm
To all of the people saying that the parents and inlaws have no "right" to decide how to name the baby, of course they have no "right"! But just because they don't have the "right" to be insulted, angry or udgemental, doesn't mean they won't be! My inlaws have no "right" to tell us not to use a name if we are adding on another name to it and they don't have a "right" to tell us what nickname to use. But just because someone doesn't have the "right" to do something, it doesn't mean it won't happen. And when it happens, people you are close to, people you don't want to or mean to insult end up being insulted. It's a hard situation to be in and the answer isn't always "do whatever you want, ignore them, you are the mother". I wish it was! I am definitely not someone to just give it and give a name I don't like and I'm definitely not saying that the OP should. I'm just explaining to all those who make it sound so simple that it is not and it's such a hard place to be in. You don't want to insult family by choosing a name you feel is right. No advice OP, just some sympathy!
As an answer to your original question, our Rav told us that people name after relatives to respect the relatives that are alive. It also bring an Aliya to the neshama of the deceased when the child does mitzvos. And you daven and hope that they receive the positive traits of that person.
My sil didn't want to name after a person who wasn't nice but really wanted to honor her mother by using the name so her rav said she should use the name and have in mind gedolim or people in tanach who share the name. She never told her mother but the child knows that they are named after people in tanach as well as the other person.
As far as I'm aware there is no source, but it does bring shalom and it respects your parents.
That being said I would not name a name you hate or the kid would be made fun of for having that name. If you are scared of disrespecting family members or don't want to hurt anyone, speaking to a Rav may help you feel less guilty for choosing a name you like/want to use.
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amother




DarkViolet
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 9:06 pm
You and your husband were given ruach hakodesh, not your rebbe, not your parents, not your grandparents or anyone else. Only you get to decide.
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imaima




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 11:52 pm
amother [ Yellow ] wrote:
To all of the people saying that the parents and inlaws have no "right" to decide how to name the baby, of course they have no "right"! But just because they don't have the "right" to be insulted, angry or udgemental, doesn't mean they won't be! My inlaws have no "right" to tell us not to use a name if we are adding on another name to it and they don't have a "right" to tell us what nickname to use. But just because someone doesn't have the "right" to do something, it doesn't mean it won't happen. And when it happens, people you are close to, people you don't want to or mean to insult end up being insulted. It's a hard situation to be in and the answer isn't always "do whatever you want, ignore them, you are the mother". I wish it was! I am definitely not someone to just give it and give a name I don't like and I'm definitely not saying that the OP should. I'm just explaining to all those who make it sound so simple that it is not and it's such a hard place to be in. You don't want to insult family by choosing a name you feel is right. No advice OP, just some sympathy!
As an answer to your original question, our Rav told us that people name after relatives to respect the relatives that are alive. It also bring an Aliya to the neshama of the deceased when the child does mitzvos. And you daven and hope that they receive the positive traits of that person.
My sil didn't want to name after a person who wasn't nice but really wanted to honor her mother by using the name so her rav said she should use the name and have in mind gedolim or people in tanach who share the name. She never told her mother but the child knows that they are named after people in tanach as well as the other person.
As far as I'm aware there is no source, but it does bring shalom and it respects your parents.
That being said I would not name a name you hate or the kid would be made fun of for having that name. If you are scared of disrespecting family members or don't want to hurt anyone, speaking to a Rav may help you feel less guilty for choosing a name you like/want to use.


I hope you realize that everyone's relationship with their in laws and parents is different.
People who have a good relationship don't need to be persuaded to use a name of a relative. If parents don't impose decisions on their kids, they have a bigger chance to be honored.

There is definitely a source in the Torah for detaching from birth parents and attaching to the spouse, not only physically but also mentally.
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banana123




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Aug 06 2021, 12:32 am
Didn't read the whole thread.

I don't think there is a source. I think people name after relatives because they want to remember their relatives, and this is a way to do it. Some people hope their child will emulate the relative.
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HonesttoGod




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Aug 06 2021, 3:06 am
With some of my kids there happened to be a name in the family to name after that we liked and we felt “fit” the baby (there’s a real thing about ruach halodesh and seeing the baby “match” the name apparently).

And with a couple we chose a few names we liked, found some family members on both sides that had said name (great great grandparents/uncles/aunts etc) and then went with the one we felt fit best.

More than the “honoring your parents by giving x name”, there is something true and real about a parent knowing and feeling which name is right. It’s 10000% your choice at the end of the day, family feelings be damned (well not your dh but extended family etc).
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