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hardworking mom
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 Mon, Aug 16 2021, 7:41 pm
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They said toby was twelve sitting with the kids her own age were did you get preschoolers out of that? Off topic but if there were preschoolers they should have been sitting at a different table anyway. And I don't think a 3 or 4 year old will care if someone stuck their hands in their plate! Have you ever met a 4 year old?
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amother
Sand
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Mon, Aug 16 2021, 7:51 pm
| hardworking mom wrote: | | They said toby was twelve sitting with the kids her own age were did you get preschoolers out of that? Off topic but if there were preschoolers they should have been sitting at a different table anyway. And I don't think a 3 or 4 year old will care if someone stuck their hands in their plate! Have you ever met a 4 year old? |
Did you read the article?
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hardworking mom
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Mon, Aug 16 2021, 7:57 pm
| amother [ Sand ] wrote: | | Did you read the article? |
Yes as a Matter of fact I did and I don't remember any preschoolers if preschoolers were the problem they could have made two separate kids tables one for the littles and one for the bigs
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amother
Sand
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Mon, Aug 16 2021, 8:01 pm
| hardworking mom wrote: | | Yes as a Matter of fact I did and I don't remember any preschoolers if preschoolers were the problem they could have made two separate kids tables one for the littles and one for the bigs |
Check out page 111, halfway down the page.
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amother
Mauve
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Mon, Aug 16 2021, 8:14 pm
| hardworking mom wrote: | | They said toby was twelve sitting with the kids her own age were did you get preschoolers out of that? Off topic but if there were preschoolers they should have been sitting at a different table anyway. And I don't think a 3 or 4 year old will care if someone stuck their hands in their plate! Have you ever met a 4 year old? |
I have a special needs niece, similar to Toby. She touches people's hair and face, gets in their space, and make comments.
My children have been taught over and over to be nice, try to include her, etc.
However, they also have rights. And they know that if she's touching them too much or making them feel uncomfortable, they are supposed to say "Sara please move back, you're in my personal space". And if she doesn't respect that, they are supposed to walk away.
They are not allowed to yell at her, embarrass her or anything. But they may protect their own feelings.
And yes, my SIL has gotten upset at family simchos because after multiple requests, her cousins walked away from her. And yes my SIL is not at the kids table, she expects the kids to just be nice and include her.
But I can't expect my children to put up with feeling uncomfortable even if she has special needs.
Reading double take really made me feel like this was my family.
But I still don't think my kids should be forced to put up with being touched unwantedly, being spit at.
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amother
Snowdrop
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Mon, Aug 16 2021, 8:34 pm
| hardworking mom wrote: | | They said toby was twelve sitting with the kids her own age were did you get preschoolers out of that? Off topic but if there were preschoolers they should have been sitting at a different table anyway. And I don't think a 3 or 4 year old will care if someone stuck their hands in their plate! Have you ever met a 4 year old? |
3 or 4 year olds should not be sitting at a table with no adult supervision, even leaving aside the specific situation in this story. Sorry if it cramps their mothers' fun, it is a matter of safety. Not fair either to expect the 10 or 12 year olds to be in charge of them either. Think about food safety/choking/using utensils properly, wandering off and getting lost, bathroom issues. They are babies still, really.
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amother
Diamond
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Mon, Aug 16 2021, 8:41 pm
As I recall it, the kids were a bit younger than Toby. I was picturing maybe 7 or 8.
Does it say anywhere in the article how old the little kids were?
Also, I disagree that little kids cant sit alone. The mothers are right near them.
You can seat little kids, age 6-12 at the same table. Also, every family is a different size. Some families would have enough little girls to fill two tables, other families won't. But it makes a lot of sense to have a separate table for the kids. They get kid friendly food and their conversation is obviously different than the adult conversation.
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amother
Diamond
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Mon, Aug 16 2021, 8:42 pm
| hardworking mom wrote: | | They said toby was twelve sitting with the kids her own age were did you get preschoolers out of that? Off topic but if there were preschoolers they should have been sitting at a different table anyway. And I don't think a 3 or 4 year old will care if someone stuck their hands in their plate! Have you ever met a 4 year old? |
And yes my 4 year old would care very much if someone stuck a finger in his plate!! And he is a boy! Kal vechomer a girl.
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amother
Sand
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Mon, Aug 16 2021, 9:00 pm
| amother [ Diamond ] wrote: | As I recall it, the kids were a bit younger than Toby. I was picturing maybe 7 or 8.
Does it say anywhere in the article how old the little kids were?
Also, I disagree that little kids cant sit alone. The mothers are right near them.
You can seat little kids, age 6-12 at the same table. Also, every family is a different size. Some families would have enough little girls to fill two tables, other families won't. But it makes a lot of sense to have a separate table for the kids. They get kid friendly food and their conversation is obviously different than the adult conversation. |
Yeah, it mentions 4-6 year olds.
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amother
Lavender
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Tue, Aug 17 2021, 12:06 pm
In my opinion the mothers of the girls overreacted.
When another person's child is creating trouble the proper way to handle it is to go over to the parent. Instead the mother confronted Toby, and created more drama.
The writer also describes how the mother was holding her child's arm tightly and probably giving her kids more reason to be scared.
And who did the mother go over to? Not Toby's mother, but her own mother! The ba'alas simcha! She escalated it and that is a reflection of a certain neediness and inability to work with a curve ball. Of course her kids were "scared" - she herself didn't know how to handle it in a mature way.
Additionally, the ba'alas simcha did tell Toby's mother that the chossen and kallah had given her some of the background on Toby. This was obviously before the wedding and not the next morning after the fact. Apparently it was somewhat addressed.
I too have a special needs child. I would probably have been checking in regularly to make sure all was running smoothly at the kids' table, especially as she was with a group of kids who didn't know her. This would be both for the other kids' comfort and to ensure that she wasn't being teased or provoked. Toby's mother's laissez faire approach certainly wasn't helpful to her daughter at this simcha. And the other mothers' responses were also off base.
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amother
Iris
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Tue, Aug 17 2021, 12:10 pm
As the mother of 3 special needs children, I completely sided with the Mother of the bride and her daughters. Someone else's simcha is not the time and place for a 'teaching moment'.
Having Toby sit with her mother for Sheva Brachos was a great compromise.
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amother
Lime
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Tue, Aug 17 2021, 12:16 pm
| amother [ Iris ] wrote: | As the mother of 3 special needs children, I completely sided with the Mother of the bride and her daughters. Someone else's simcha is not the time and place for a 'teaching moment'.
Having Toby sit with her mother for Sheva Brachos was a great compromise. |
No, it wasn't. Toby's mother should have arranged things beforehand, but to single Toby out and sit her with her mother means publicly humiliating Toby. I'm not exaggerating when I say this could scar her for life.
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amother
Lime
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Tue, Aug 17 2021, 12:18 pm
| amother [ Lightblue ] wrote: | No one treated her badly.
She (because she can’t help it) was treating others poorly. |
Singling someone out is treating them badly.
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amother
Diamond
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Tue, Aug 17 2021, 12:43 pm
| amother [ Lavender ] wrote: | In my opinion the mothers of the girls overreacted.
When another person's child is creating trouble the proper way to handle it is to go over to the parent. Instead the mother confronted Toby, and created more drama.
The writer also describes how the mother was holding her child's arm tightly and probably giving her kids more reason to be scared.
And who did the mother go over to? Not Toby's mother, but her own mother! The ba'alas simcha! She escalated it and that is a reflection of a certain neediness and inability to work with a curve ball. Of course her kids were "scared" - she herself didn't know how to handle it in a mature way.
Additionally, the ba'alas simcha did tell Toby's mother that the chossen and kallah had given her some of the background on Toby. This was obviously before the wedding and not the next morning after the fact. Apparently it was somewhat addressed.
I too have a special needs child. I would probably have been checking in regularly to make sure all was running smoothly at the kids' table, especially as she was with a group of kids who didn't know her. This would be both for the other kids' comfort and to ensure that she wasn't being teased or provoked. Toby's mother's laissez faire approach certainly wasn't helpful to her daughter at this simcha. And the other mothers' responses were also off base. |
This is a very balanced analysis.
I hear your point that perhaps the mother of the little girls mishandled the situation.
However, I'm not sure I totally agree that we can fault her. Firstly, is it always a rule that you address the mother and not the kid? Who says? Sometimes you come across a situation where kids are bickering and you can try to talk to the kids without running to involve the other mother. Remember, the special needs was "invisible" so she may not have realized at first what she was dealing with. And this is assuming she knows who the mother is and where to find her.
Additionally, you are expecting this woman to react "maturely", when she likely has no experience in dealing with SN children. As a mother of a SN child, I am often at a loss in handling my own child, how can I expect someone who doesn't know my child to handle it better?
Finally. She approached her Mom the next morning, not at the wedding herself. I don't think that is neediness. She called her mom to apprise her of the situation so she can be proactive for the Shabbos sheva brachos. After all it is her mother's simcha. It's not so simple to say that she should call Toby's mother. Remember, they are brand new mechutanim, and it's not always simple to navigate these relationships.
Ultimately, the onus to be proactive was on Toby's mother, as well as the onus to be both apologetic and cooperative since the baalas simcha reached out with the problem .
I can hear that seating Toby separately can be very hurtful, and maybe they should have continued the conversation to see if they could come up with a mutually agreeable plan.
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amother
Lavender
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Tue, Aug 17 2021, 12:59 pm
| amother [ Diamond ] wrote: | This is a very balanced analysis.
I hear your point that perhaps the mother of the little girls mishandled the situation.
However, I'm not sure I totally agree that we can fault her. Firstly, is it always a rule that you address the mother and not the kid? Who says? Sometimes you come across a situation where kids are bickering and you can try to talk to the kids without running to involve the other mother. Remember, the special needs was "invisible" so she may not have realized at first what she was dealing with. And this is assuming she knows who the mother is and where to find her.
Additionally, you are expecting this woman to react "maturely", when she likely has no experience in dealing with SN children. As a mother of a SN child, I am often at a loss in handling my own child, how can I expect someone who doesn't know my child to handle it better?
Finally. She approached her Mom the next morning, not at the wedding herself. I don't think that is neediness. She called her mom to apprise her of the situation so she can be proactive for the Shabbos sheva brachos. After all it is her mother's simcha. It's not so simple to say that she should call Toby's mother. Remember, they are brand new mechutanim, and it's not always simple to navigate these relationships.
Ultimately, the onus to be proactive was on Toby's mother, as well as the onus to be both apologetic and cooperative since the baalas simcha reached out with the problem .
I can hear that seating Toby separately can be very hurtful, and maybe they should have continued the conversation to see if they could come up with a mutually agreeable plan. |
If you read the full story the mother went to complain to the baalas simcha at the wedding itself.
If there is extreme behavior, then you do approach the parent and don't try to work it out yourself. This was extreme behavior - touching kids' food and insulting them is extreme - they all acknowledged that.
I do agree that the onus is on Toby's mother, but I also feel that the kallah's family didn't handle it well. The mother was obviously nearby, and the kids' mothers were not diplomatic about any of it. I don't agree with the excuse that no one in the family had any exposure to special needs or people who are different to them - in this day and age that sounds self absorbed and rigid.
The kids were so scared that they were refusing to come to the sheva brachos? The parents were unable to reassure them in any way? In my opinion they encouraged this type of response.
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Chayalle
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Tue, Aug 17 2021, 1:09 pm
| amother [ Lavender ] wrote: | | The kids were so scared that they were refusing to come to the sheva brachos? The parents were unable to reassure them in any way? In my opinion they encouraged this type of response. |
I don't know about scared, but replacing that with uncomfortable, I could see my kids not wanting to attend a Simcha where they will have to put up with being touched or having someone stick their fingers in their food. They would rather stay home.
The way to reassure them is to get the mother on board. She has to supervise her daughter, not a group of kids.
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amother
Lavender
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Tue, Aug 17 2021, 1:54 pm
| Chayalle wrote: | I don't know about scared, but replacing that with uncomfortable, I could see my kids not wanting to attend a Simcha where they will have to put up with being touched or having someone stick their fingers in their food. They would rather stay home.
The way to reassure them is to get the mother on board. She has to supervise her daughter, not a group of kids. |
I agree that Toby's mother dropped the ball.
The word scared was used by the mothers and the grandmother.
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amother
Viola
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Tue, Aug 17 2021, 2:40 pm
I’m an adult and would be bothered (although I’d keep quiet) if my hair, body, food.... was touched
I understood both sides
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imorethanamother
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Tue, Aug 17 2021, 5:43 pm
| amother [ Red ] wrote: | Do you think that children have to be okay with being touched, or having their food touched? Because I was horrified by that, to be honest.
I'll tell you why. I have a relative of a relative that comes to Simchas. And they think I ought to be okay with their grown SN son touching my teenage girls. You see, it doesn't stop if it doesn't stop. And it's not okay.
He may be SN, but he's a MAN.
If the child touches others inappropriately, the parents need to be responsible. It's not okay to come into other people's personal body space. |
Many SN individuals may look like an adult, but they have the mind of a child. I've asked shaylos and I could give you a list of countless Rabbaim that say it's not an issue.
Of course, your teenage daughters have the right to their own body, but I'm just pointing out a common fallacy.
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amother
Gold
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Tue, Aug 17 2021, 5:56 pm
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Why couldn't Toby's mother sit with the kids, vs the Toby sitting with her? I see this a lot at kids' tables, even if it's informal. There's often a kid who is shy, or impulsive, or whatever who could get extra help.
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