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Mishpacha double take- this week
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mha3484




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 16 2021, 12:11 pm
I see this from multiple perspectives. I have a child that has pretty severe ADHD but is bh well medicated so as he gets older he can manage social situations pretty well but when he was younger there were a lot of places we just didnt go. It was not worth it for me or for him to be in that situation of feeling like the one kid always getting told off.

I was a very socially awkward as a child and teenager. I was impulsive, I didn't have a good social skills and due to various factors I had very little in common with my cousins on one side of the family. I hated family simchos in those years. My mother wanted to sit with the adults and pretend that I was fine at the kids table. Being forced to sit with people who I had nothing to do with was torture. I faked sick a few times to leave early. A full shabbos of that and I would have just refused to go. Like Tobys mother, I'm sure my mother thought I was having a blast but if she really tried to put her self in my shoes she would have realized that it was not fun at all.

I think when you have a child with challenges communication between all parties is key. Where was the grandmother of Toby? Why was she not involved in this? Why was this not discussed when the sheva brachos was being planned during the engagement? Long term though its not a sustainable situation. Assuming that a teenage girl with challenges can just be put at a kid/teen table and all is well is not a good assumption.
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hardworking mom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 16 2021, 12:24 pm
I liked the now is not the time to teach the kids about different ppl. umm actually nows perfect time
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Ema of 5




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 16 2021, 12:30 pm
Chayalle wrote:
I was thinking of it sort of the way it is at weddings, where the head table is set up such that the Chosson and father and FIL are on the men's side, and the Kallah, her mother, and MIL are on the womens' side (plus grandparents of course...) The mechitza comes up to meet the headtable between the Chosson and Kallah.

I’ve never been to any Simcha where there was a mechitza between the chosen and kallah! Is that a thing??? I’ve seen separate rooms, but if they’re in the same room I’ve never seen them separated.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 16 2021, 12:32 pm
Ema of 4 wrote:
I’ve never been to any Simcha where there was a mechitza between the chosen and kallah! Is that a thing??? I’ve seen separate rooms, but if they’re in the same room I’ve never seen them separated.


I've seen it at many Simchas, the mechitza isn't between the Chassan Kallah. It just comes up to meet the table they are sitting at, at the point between them. Sort of like the table and the mechitza form a T. The Chosson Kallah are sitting at the table, base of the T. Mechitza is the leg. Kallah sits to the left, and Chosson to the right.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 16 2021, 12:33 pm
hardworking mom wrote:
I liked the now is not the time to teach the kids about different ppl. umm actually nows perfect time


Mother goes off to enjoy herself, leaving everyone to learn about how to interact with SN kid. Ain't gonna work.
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amother
Oatmeal


 

Post Mon, Aug 16 2021, 12:33 pm
Chayalle wrote:
I've seen it at many Simchas, the mechitza isn't between the Chassan Kallah. It just comes up to meet the table they are sitting at, at the point between them. Sort of like the table and the mechitza form a T. The Chosson Kallah are sitting at the table, base of the T. Mechitza is the leg. Kallah sits to the left, and Chosson to the right.


Yes this is the mechitza that all my friends had (and the ones that didn't move to the right or left still have.)
JPF and yeshivish.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 16 2021, 12:34 pm
amother [ Oatmeal ] wrote:
Yes this is the mechitza that all my friends had (and the ones that didn't move to the right or left still have.)
JPF and yeshivish.


I had it too. At my WEDDING. Not at Shabbos Sheva Brachos.
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keym




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 16 2021, 12:40 pm
Chayalle wrote:
I had it too. At my WEDDING. Not at Shabbos Sheva Brachos.


At mine/my siblings Sheva Brachos, we frequently did separate seating but no mechitza. Usually some sort of large Ches with all the men on one leg, women on the other leg and the chassan/kalla right in the middle of the head.

Some of us had a Sheva Brachos in our husbands Yeshiva, or if the chassan or kallahs father worked in a yeshiva. Those were actually separate with a mechitza. Probably for the comfort of all the not related Yeshiva boys.
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amother
Oatmeal


 

Post Mon, Aug 16 2021, 12:40 pm
Chayalle wrote:
I had it too. At my WEDDING. Not at Shabbos Sheva Brachos.


Weddings of course. I'm talking about shabbos Sheva brochos. (Didn't attend one like that in a long time but when I did.)

I think maybe it is a thing that is community specific.
I dont want to derail this thread further.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 16 2021, 12:42 pm
keym wrote:
At mine/my siblings Sheva Brachos, we frequently did separate seating but no mechitza. Usually some sort of large Ches with all the men on one leg, women on the other leg and the chassan/kalla right in the middle of the head.

Some of us had a Sheva Brachos in our husbands Yeshiva, or if the chassan or kallahs father worked in a yeshiva. Those were actually separate with a mechitza. Probably for the comfort of all the not related Yeshiva boys.


Yes, now I remember I had one Sheva Brachos like this (not Shabbos). R' Schustal came to speak, so they had separate seating and put up a mechitza when he arrived.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 16 2021, 12:44 pm
amother [ Oatmeal ] wrote:
Weddings of course. I'm talking about shabbos Sheva brochos. (Didn't attend one like that in a long time but when I did.)

I think maybe it is a thing that is community specific.
I dont want to derail this thread further.


Yes I'm sure it is.
And there are yesh v'yesh.
I'm sure when it will come to our girls, my DH will say "whatever the other side wants...."

OK back to the thread. I just didn't want people to think that whoever does this is against the Halacha. There are prominent yeshivish Rabbanim who say it's not a problem.
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keym




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 16 2021, 12:44 pm
Chayalle wrote:
Yes, now I remember I had one Sheva Brachos like this (not Shabbos). R' Schustal came to speak, so they had separate seating and put up a mechitza when he arrived.


We had separate seating by all our Sheva Brachos (and siblings Sheva Brachos). NEVER a mechitza.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 16 2021, 12:46 pm
keym wrote:
We had separate seating by all our Sheva Brachos (and siblings Sheva Brachos). NEVER a mechitza.


LOL I remember my BIL suddenly moving the mechitza in place (was in a shul so they had these movable ones) when R' Schustal arrived. I don't think it was cuz of Halacha, just was to respect his personal chumrah and put it up when he came to speak. He was DH's grandfather's Talmid of years ago....
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hardworking mom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 16 2021, 6:14 pm
Chayalle wrote:
Mother goes off to enjoy herself, leaving everyone to learn about how to interact with SN kid. Ain't gonna work.
when do you propose the kids will learn how to deal with other human beings? When everyone is exactly like them? And no chinuch is not exactly a walk in the park. Ok so the mothers won't enjoy themselves as much.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 16 2021, 6:46 pm
hardworking mom wrote:
when do you propose the kids will learn how to deal with other human beings? When everyone is exactly like them? And no chinuch is not exactly a walk in the park. Ok so the mothers won't enjoy themselves as much.


Exactly my point. If the mother wants kids to learn how to interact with her SN child, SHE will have to stay with her and help supervise and acquaint the kids with her child.

Not, sit at another table enjoying herself with the adults, hoping/expecting the kids to come thru and learn how to deal (which is what takes place in the FF story.)
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hardworking mom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 16 2021, 6:56 pm
Chayalle wrote:
Exactly my point. If the mother wants kids to learn how to interact with her SN child, SHE will have to stay with her and help supervise and acquaint the kids with her child.

Not, sit at another table enjoying herself with the adults, hoping/expecting the kids to come thru and learn how to deal (which is what takes place in the FF story.)

True I didn't think of it that way but your right
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amother
Sand


 

Post Mon, Aug 16 2021, 7:06 pm
Chayalle wrote:
Exactly my point. If the mother wants kids to learn how to interact with her SN child, SHE will have to stay with her and help supervise and acquaint the kids with her child.

Not, sit at another table enjoying herself with the adults, hoping/expecting the kids to come thru and learn how to deal (which is what takes place in the FF story.)


I agree. It's up to the mother to be proactive, and not expect everyone, young and old alike, to be equipped to step up to the plate. She should have reached out to the other party much earlier in the game and discussed the situation. She should have discussed how to handle SB, and informed her of Toby's behaviors. This way the other side could have had the opportunity to teach their children how to handle the situation. There is a very big difference between a prepared child knowing that Toby is not scary, and its just that she doesn't know that she is doing something inappropriate, than trying to tell a scared child that the one who just frightened her or made her feel very uncomfortable is not scary.

These were preschoolers - 4,5 & 6 year olds. Chinuch has its time and place, and being mechanech preschoolers when they're already scared doesn't work. Either you do it before, or you do it when they've calmed down. Toby's mother was really in the wrong expecting unwitting preschoolers to handle this properly.

Also, there's a big difference between accommodating a SN person, and constructing the entire simcha around a SN person. Most definitely, accommodations should be made for SN, but organizing and designing the entire Simcha around the SN participant is unfair to everyone else involved.
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amother
Sand


 

Post Mon, Aug 16 2021, 7:09 pm
hardworking mom wrote:
when do you propose the kids will learn how to deal with other human beings? When everyone is exactly like them? And no chinuch is not exactly a walk in the park. Ok so the mothers won't enjoy themselves as much.


When they're calm and prepared - not scared and frightened. These were preschoolers. Either you prepare them in advance, or you wait till after once they've calmed down. Chinuch has to be done properly in order for it to be grasped.
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amother
Lime


 

Post Mon, Aug 16 2021, 7:14 pm
Chayalle wrote:
Exactly my point. If the mother wants kids to learn how to interact with her SN child, SHE will have to stay with her and help supervise and acquaint the kids with her child.

But you're framing this as an accommodation for the mother's wishes. The child is a human being in her own right. Even if her mother was wrong, that doesn't mean it's okay to treat her badly. And it is every parent's responsibility to educate his/her own children about diversity and special needs. (It is true that "now is not the time," but the time was as soon as the child was old enough to have the discussion.)
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amother
Lightblue


 

Post Mon, Aug 16 2021, 7:22 pm
amother [ Lime ] wrote:
But you're framing this as an accommodation for the mother's wishes. The child is a human being in her own right. Even if her mother was wrong, that doesn't mean it's okay to treat her badly. And it is every parent's responsibility to educate his/her own children about diversity and special needs. (It is true that "now is not the time," but the time was as soon as the child was old enough to have the discussion.)


No one treated her badly.
She (because she can’t help it) was treating others poorly.
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