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amother
NeonGreen
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 Tue, Aug 24 2021, 8:38 am
| etky wrote: | This is just wrong.
What do you base your assertion on regarding the reason they are not vaccinated?
Most people in Israel who are not vaccinated - including the frail elderly - are just not interested in being vaccinated.
And among the elderly, many are from the Arab sector which is under-vaccinated in general.
Second, the data has been normalized and analyzed separately for each age group, and within those age groups comparisons were made between those with comorbidities and those without and the results showed that in each group those who were vaccinated fared far better than those who were not.
https://www.globes.co.il/news/.....79387
This study was conducted before the administration of the third dose and I imagine in preparation for the cabinet decision to introduce the booster.
Since then, the discrepancies regarding severe disease between vaccinated and unvaccinated have become much more dramatic. All you have to do it check the Health Ministry's dashboard to see the graphs.
If you're going to bring Israel into the picture as someone on this thread suggested, then do it accurately and don't just throw out numbers without context or state unsubstantiated 'facts'. |
The point being made is that the efficacy of the vaccine is failing, not whether or not the vaccine still might give an advantage in terms of absolute number of deaths. If it's failing, then it's unclear what any purported advantage may be, how long it will last, and whether the risk of adverse events justifies it.
Israel had 58 deaths 5 weeks ago, over 524 now.
That's why they're pushing the third booster.
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southernbubby
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Tue, Aug 24 2021, 8:47 am
So apparently a bunch of doctors and other hospital workers staged a walkout at dawn to protest the antivaxers. The hospital is going crazy and people need to be careful not to fall or have any other mishap because the staff in hospitals in hard hit areas are overworked and fed up.
One Florida mother, who was vaccinated, had a mild breakthrough case, but her unvaccinated sons, aged 35 and 41, died within 12 hours of each other and she regrets not nagging them to vaccinate.
People who need healthcare for reasons unrelated to coronavirus may have to wait for it.
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etky
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Tue, Aug 24 2021, 9:13 am
| amother [ NeonGreen ] wrote: | The point being made is that the efficacy of the vaccine is failing, not whether or not the vaccine still might give an advantage in terms of absolute number of deaths. If it's failing, then it's unclear what any purported advantage may be, how long it will last, and whether the risk of adverse events justifies it.
Israel had 58 deaths 5 weeks ago, over 524 now.
That's why they're pushing the third booster. |
Yes, it's failing now -about six months after most people got the first two doses.
But it gave us 5-6 months of almost normal life and way fewer deaths compared to the pre-vaccine period.
Now the third dose is probably obviating the need for a fourth lockdown.
No one does know for how long this booster will be effective but scientists estimate it might give us 8 months based on the level of antibodies that it is supposed to produce as opposed to the first two doses.
Nothing is without risk but as a society we could not just wait to see what would happen. Previous waves showed that hospitals would soon be overwhelmed if the waning of the vaccine was ignored and people just carried on with their lives, especially since the current government is loathe to impose any significant restrictions that might curb the virus' spread.
I do feel that they rushed into the third dose in a panic, and from unwillingness to impose any unpopular measures (and probably from conviction that any such measures would be difficult if not impossible to enforce), but so far it's a gamble that seems to be working and something had to be done.
You raise the question of the vaccine's long term adverse effects. It's a legitimate question and I can't say it doesn't concern me but so does the question of long term effects of contracting the virus.
I don't think we have the luxury of thinking long-term right now. The past year and a half have shown that decisions have to be made quickly and the vaccine did prove itself effective in bringing down the numbers. When it worked, it worked very well.
Hopefully it will work well again - so far it seems we may have turned a corner in terms of serious cases - and in the meantime, in the time that we are buying, maybe we can figure out a safe and effective treatment or come up with a vaccine with more lasting power.
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Ema of 5
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Tue, Aug 24 2021, 9:52 am
| southernbubby wrote: | So apparently a bunch of doctors and other hospital workers staged a walkout at dawn to protest the antivaxers. The hospital is going crazy and people need to be careful not to fall or have any other mishap because the staff in hospitals in hard hit areas are overworked and fed up.
One Florida mother, who was vaccinated, had a mild breakthrough case, but her unvaccinated sons, aged 35 and 41, died within 12 hours of each other and she regrets not nagging them to vaccinate.
People who need healthcare for reasons unrelated to coronavirus may have to wait for it. |
Which hospital is this?
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southernbubby
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Tue, Aug 24 2021, 10:08 am
Yahoo News
Business Insider
75 doctors from multiple South Florida hospitals staged a walkout to protest a surge in unvaccinated COVID-19 patients
Ashley Collman
August 24, 2021, 5:55 am
75 doctors from multiple South Florida hospitals staged a walkout to protest a surge in unvaccinated COVID-19 patients
75 doctors from multiple South Florida hospitals staged a walkout to protest a surge in unvaccinated COVID-19 patients
Florida doctors covid walk out
South Florida doctors take part in a walkout to protest a surge in unvaccinated patients. WPTV
About 75 doctors from different hospitals in South Florida took part in a walkout on Monday.
The doctors wanted to draw attention to a surge in unvaccinated COVID-19 patients.
There were nearly 150,000 new coronavirus cases in Florida in the last week.
See more stories on Insider's business page.
Dozens of South Florida doctors staged a symbolic walkout of a hospital in Palm Beach Gardens on Monday to protest a surge in unvaccinated COVID-19 patients, according to local reports.
WPTV reported that about 75 doctors - who work in different hospitals and offices - took part in the walkout. Some even took breaks from their shifts to participate, MSNBC reported.
Florida is currently experiencing the worst COVID-19 outbreak in the nation, with nearly 150,000 new cases in the last week alone, according to Monday data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
Hospitals in the state are at 84.6% capacity, according to the Department of Health and Human Services. Only a little more than half of the state's population - 51.6% - are fully vaccinated against the coronavirus, according to data from the Mayo Clinic.
The doctors who took part in Monday's walkout said the vast majority of the cases they're seeing now are among unvaccinated patients, many of whom have expressed regret about not having gotten the vaccine, WPTV reported.
They decided to stage the walkout to draw attention to the crisis and to call on more people to get vaccinated.
"We are exhausted. Our patience and resources are running low and we need your help," Dr. Rupesh Dharia from Palm Beach Internal Medicine told WFLA.
"The vaccine still remains the most effective and reliable way to stop this madness," Dr. Leslie Diaz, an infectious-disease specialist, told WFLA.
The protest came on the same day the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine gained full approval from the Food and Drug Administration.
Vaccines from Moderna and Johnson & Johnson are also available in the US, after the FDA gave them emergency-use authorization. All three have been shown to be highly effective at preventing severe infection, hospitalization, and death from COVID-19.
Read the original article on Business Insider
View more on Yahoo News
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amother
Hosta
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Tue, Aug 24 2021, 10:10 am
I know ppl say they fear covid long term effects.
But aren’t studies coming out now saying ppl vaccinated and get covid asymptomatic are still getting long covid at the same rate. And they don’t even know they had covid.
So much is still unknown about the vaccinated.
Is that concerning?
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Mishmish
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Tue, Aug 24 2021, 10:22 am
| #BestBubby wrote: | How does vaccinating help the medically vulnerable
when VACCINATED CAN SPREAD COVID???
SOW, you keep ignoring this point! |
No one is ignoring this or saying the vaccine is 100% effective. *When* a vaccinated person contracts covid, it appears they can spread it. But they are catching it at a much lower rate than those who are not vaccinated. The vaccines help. A lot. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volum.....1.htm
And those who are vaccinated are also much, much less likely to have a severe case—hospitals across America right now have ICUs filling up with unvaccinated covid patients. The vaccines help. A lot.
Do you require 100% efficacy for everything for it to be of value?
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amother
Lily
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Tue, Aug 24 2021, 11:40 am
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Maybe the vaccinated hospitalized patients are being treated better than the unvaccinated,that's why they're recovering and not dying?
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imasinger
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Tue, Aug 24 2021, 11:44 am
| amother [ Lily ] wrote: | | Maybe the vaccinated hospitalized patients are being treated better than the unvaccinated,that's why they're recovering and not dying? |
That's a terrible thing to think or say.
Doctors and nurses are burning out from working around the clock, caring for everyone in need.
I hope nobody ever makes such evil assumptions about you when you are sacrificing yourself in some way to help them.
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amother
NeonGreen
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Tue, Aug 24 2021, 12:02 pm
| etky wrote: | Yes, it's failing now -about six months after most people got the first two doses.
But it gave us 5-6 months of almost normal life and way fewer deaths compared to the pre-vaccine period.
Now the third dose is probably obviating the need for a fourth lockdown.
No one does know for how long this booster will be effective but scientists estimate it might give us 8 months based on the level of antibodies that it is supposed to produce as opposed to the first two doses.
Nothing is without risk but as a society we could not just wait to see what would happen. Previous waves showed that hospitals would soon be overwhelmed if the waning of the vaccine was ignored and people just carried on with their lives, especially since the current government is loathe to impose any significant restrictions that might curb the virus' spread.
I do feel that they rushed into the third dose in a panic, and from unwillingness to impose any unpopular measures (and probably from conviction that any such measures would be difficult if not impossible to enforce), but so far it's a gamble that seems to be working and something had to be done.
You raise the question of the vaccine's long term adverse effects. It's a legitimate question and I can't say it doesn't concern me but so does the question of long term effects of contracting the virus.
I don't think we have the luxury of thinking long-term right now. The past year and a half have shown that decisions have to be made quickly and the vaccine did prove itself effective in bringing down the numbers. When it worked, it worked very well.
Hopefully it will work well again - so far it seems we may have turned a corner in terms of serious cases - and in the meantime, in the time that we are buying, maybe we can figure out a safe and effective treatment or come up with a vaccine with more lasting power. |
Now new research from Japan seems to indicate that the vaccine will be contributing to ADE, and worse with the booster. Not only did they rush into the booster, they're giving it out without a single clinical trial, not even a tiny trial. They have absolutely no clue whether or not the booster will increase the risks of ADE, or of any other adverse events, or promote the development of more virulent strains.
https://www.biorxiv.org/conten.....l.pdf
There are other solutions as I mentioned earlier, there is a basket of options for early treatments that have all seen very positive results. I personally have 2 family members who were treated and did very well, despite both having several co-morbidities including age over 70. The doctor who treated them has treated hundreds of patients, some morbidly obese with hypertension, some cancer survivors and more, and only one required hospitalization and that was because she refused to follow the protocol.
It's simply not true that there are no other options.
Furthermore, we now know from Sweden, which never locked down and hasn't had a covid death in several weeks, that herd immunity via natural infection does work. We also know now that herd immunity is not possible through the vaccines as they are "leaky" and do not prevent transmission.
Logically, the best course going forward imo is to promote early treatments so that we can have herd immunity, and not have to worry about adverse events of the vaccine.
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SixOfWands
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Tue, Aug 24 2021, 12:13 pm
| amother [ Denim ] wrote: | | That's actually not true I work at a daycare in new York and every one even the infants need to be vaccinated. Even if they should not be getting it even if they're preemies even if they get sick every time they get their shots... too bad! The day a child turns 6 weeks they get their first shots and from there every 2 months ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSES |
I assume you're discussing vaccines other than covid, as the covid vaccine isn't approved for children under 12.
Yes, states have vaccine mandates for daycare.
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SixOfWands
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Tue, Aug 24 2021, 12:17 pm
| #BestBubby wrote: | How does vaccinating help the medically vulnerable
when VACCINATED CAN SPREAD COVID???
SOW, you keep ignoring this point! |
No, I don't. You keep ignoring my responses. Like you keep ignoring the dozens of questions I've asked you, then keep posting inaccurate information.
Persons with the vaccine are much less likely to get covid, and much less likely to be contagious.
https://www.webmd.com/vaccines.....virus
That protects the medically vulnerable.
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southernbubby
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Tue, Aug 24 2021, 12:27 pm
| amother [ NeonGreen ] wrote: | Now new research from Japan seems to indicate that the vaccine will be contributing to ADE, and worse with the booster. Not only did they rush into the booster, they're giving it out without a single clinical trial, not even a tiny trial. They have absolutely no clue whether or not the booster will increase the risks of ADE, or of any other adverse events, or promote the development of more virulent strains.
https://www.biorxiv.org/conten.....l.pdf
There are other solutions as I mentioned earlier, there is a basket of options for early treatments that have all seen very positive results. I personally have 2 family members who were treated and did very well, despite both having several co-morbidities including age over 70. The doctor who treated them has treated hundreds of patients, some morbidly obese with hypertension, some cancer survivors and more, and only one required hospitalization and that was because she refused to follow the protocol.
It's simply not true that there are no other options.
Furthermore, we now know from Sweden, which never locked down and hasn't had a covid death in several weeks, that herd immunity via natural infection does work. We also know now that herd immunity is not possible through the vaccines as they are "leaky" and do not prevent transmission.
Logically, the best course going forward imo is to promote early treatments so that we can have herd immunity, and not have to worry about adverse events of the vaccine. |
As I said somewhere on this site, Sweden and the frum community front loaded the deaths so there is herd immunity but it came at a price.
There are now plenty of clinics offering monoclonal antibodies, which is the gold standard for treatment, but only approximately 30% of Covid patients avail themselves of it. The word needs to get out that it's available.
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Ema of 5
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Tue, Aug 24 2021, 12:32 pm
| imasinger wrote: | That's a terrible thing to think or say.
Doctors and nurses are burning out from working around the clock, caring for everyone in need.
I hope nobody ever makes such evil assumptions about you when you are sacrificing yourself in some way to help them. |
It’s been outright said here more than once that unvaccinated people should take care of their own medical care and expenses….
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imasinger
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Tue, Aug 24 2021, 12:35 pm
| Ema of 4 wrote: | | It’s been outright said here more than once that unvaccinated people should take care of their own medical care and expenses…. |
That's completely different than accusing a medical professional letting people die because of vaccine politics.
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Ema of 5
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Tue, Aug 24 2021, 12:39 pm
| imasinger wrote: | | That's completely different than accusing a medical professional letting people die because of vaccine politics. |
My point was that if people are saying it here, it’s not such a stretch to think it may actually be happening. I certainly hope it’s not, and it is a terrible thing if it is, but it’s not such a far fetched thought, unfortunately.
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amother
NeonGreen
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Tue, Aug 24 2021, 12:54 pm
| southernbubby wrote: | As I said somewhere on this site, Sweden and the frum community front loaded the deaths so there is herd immunity but it came at a price.
There are now plenty of clinics offering monoclonal antibodies, which is the gold standard for treatment, but only approximately 30% of Covid patients avail themselves of it. The word needs to get out that it's available. |
I have no opinion on monoclonal antibodies, although I've heard people are happy with it. I don't know how you can call it the gold standard though when it also lacks long term data. The basket of treatment options I referred to does not include monoclonal antibodies, rather, repurposed drugs that each have either a long history of safety or very well-known possible risks.
The frum community paid a terrible price, but I do not see why that should happen again as we now have 18 months of data on what treatments work, and again as mentioned, there are several.
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SixOfWands
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Tue, Aug 24 2021, 12:54 pm
| amother [ NeonGreen ] wrote: | Now new research from Japan seems to indicate that the vaccine will be contributing to ADE, and worse with the booster. Not only did they rush into the booster, they're giving it out without a single clinical trial, not even a tiny trial. They have absolutely no clue whether or not the booster will increase the risks of ADE, or of any other adverse events, or promote the development of more virulent strains.
https://www.biorxiv.org/conten.....l.pdf |
The article does not seem to mention ADE or antibody dependent enhancement, based on my skimming and use of a search function. Can you please point out precisely where in the article the researchers state that the Pfizer vaccine contributes to antibody dependent enhancement (ADE)?
Or is that is simply your claim, made without evidence, but slipped in with research to make it sound like it has some basis?
What the article actually seems to be saying is that because not enough people have taken the vaccine, covid is still out there, rampant, and mutating in ways that the vaccine may not be able to handle, the vaccine is likely to become less effective.
| amother [ NeonGreen ] wrote: |
There are other solutions as I mentioned earlier, there is a basket of options for early treatments that have all seen very positive results. I personally have 2 family members who were treated and did very well, despite both having several co-morbidities including age over 70. The doctor who treated them has treated hundreds of patients, some morbidly obese with hypertension, some cancer survivors and more, and only one required hospitalization and that was because she refused to follow the protocol.
It's simply not true that there are no other options. |
Monoclonal antibody treatment is promising. If you want to risk getting sick and gasping for breath, then getting treatment, sure.
But the plural of anecdote isn't data. Just because your relatives recovered doesn't mean that 4.4 million people in the world, 1,359 in the US yesterday alone, didn't die. When I was a kid, no one wore seatbelts, and I don't know anyone who died in a car accident. That doesn't change a thing about how dangerous it is.
| amother [ NeonGreen ] wrote: | | Furthermore, we now know from Sweden, which never locked down and hasn't had a covid death in several weeks, that herd immunity via natural infection does work. We also know now that herd immunity is not possible through the vaccines as they are "leaky" and do not prevent transmission. |
4 people died of covid in Sweden on August 20, 2 on August 19, 3 on August 18. They adopted a pandemic law in January 2021, including (1) Shops, gyms, indoor facilities and swimming facilities must limit the number of visitors so that there is at least 10 square metres per person inside. Companies have to display clear signage that clarifies for visitors how many people may visit the premises at the same time. (2) Indoors, a group of eight people can sit together in a restaurant.
At indoor events without designated seating, a maximum of 50 participants are allowed. This includes private gatherings in rented premises. (3) At indoor events where participants are assigned a seat, a maximum of 300 people is allowed. (4) At outdoor events, a maximum of 3,000 seated participants are allowed. Travel restrictions remain in effect.
66% of the population has received at least 1 dose of vaccine, and over 50% 3 doses.
Can you please explain how that supports your claims?
In any case, even if herd immunity is possible, given the rapid mutations of the virus and the fact that we know that natural immunity is waning (see, eg, https://www.wbrc.com/2021/06/0.....soon/), it will result in millions of additional deaths throughout the world. Who is volunteering as tribute?
| amother [ NeonGreen ] wrote: |
Logically, the best course going forward imo is to promote early treatments so that we can have herd immunity, and not have to worry about adverse events of the vaccine. |
See above.
In any case, we also don't know the long term effects of covid infection. We know that decades later, chicken pox can come back as shingles. We don't know what can happen with covid.
BTW, monoclonal antibody treatment has only received EUA. Given the lack of long term studies, why do vaccine opponents approve of it?
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amother
Heather
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Tue, Aug 24 2021, 1:00 pm
While not perfect and yes unknown as to longterm effects so people definitely have to do their own risk/benefit calculation the vaccines DO work
what is giving people so many mixed messages is Dr Fauxi and co, the hypocrisy of the politicization of messages and which gatherings get smeared and forbidden (hint Obamas birthday party was fine) etc....
Oy
Hashem Yerachem
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southernbubby
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Tue, Aug 24 2021, 1:06 pm
| amother [ NeonGreen ] wrote: | I have no opinion on monoclonal antibodies, although I've heard people are happy with it. I don't know how you can call it the gold standard though when it also lacks long term data. The basket of treatment options I referred to does not include monoclonal antibodies, rather, repurposed drugs that each have either a long history of safety or very well-known possible risks.
The frum community paid a terrible price, but I do not see why that should happen again as we now have 18 months of data on what treatments work, and again as mentioned, there are several. |
I can't make a religion out of off label medications. I explained numerous times why I was afraid of them. There is only one doctor in Florida, a guy in Hollywood, who gives ivermectin while most doctors are using monoclonal antibodies. I am not sure why the "true believers" are so uninterested in the gold standard of treatment when I have not heard of any complaints from people who used it.
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