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Can any school administrator please explain?
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amother




Dimgray
 

Post Mon, Aug 23 2021, 9:03 am
amother [ NeonOrange ] wrote:
How about Bein Hazmanim for boys. Giving them off for a month Pesach time and during yomim tovim. How many boys really schedule themselves and learn versus sleeping in late and hanging around.


This is a different discussion. Personally, I think it's good to let the boys breathe. Regardless, this is a situation that doesn't interfere with the parents' work schedules.
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amother




Bellflower
 

Post Mon, Aug 23 2021, 9:47 am
amother [ Dimgray ] wrote:
I'm tired of teachers pretending they have it so much harder than other workers. I think its time to mandate that teachers should first work elsewhere before accepting a teaching job. Yes, teachers work hard. But, get this, so do all the other people that work. Jobs are called work for a reason. They're hard and many people put in all kind of working hours and many people have stressful, all-time consuming jobs. It's not exclusive to teaching at all.

Many people are underpaid too for their particular work. Again, it's not exclusive to teachers. The kids get jumpy by June because of how the system is set up, they know that vacation is around the corner. It would be the same mentality whenever the vacation is scheduled. And perhaps they wouldn't be as jumpy, if they'd have the vacation scattered across the year.


And I'm tired of non teachers thinking they know what teaching is like. I happen to work very hard at another job too so I know what working is....teaching is in a class of its own. All I'm saying is that as a teacher if you start pulling away summer teachers will leave. The salaries are very, very low and the work is super all encompassing on an emotional and physical level.
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amother




Dimgray
 

Post Mon, Aug 23 2021, 10:06 am
amother [ Bellflower ] wrote:
And I'm tired of non teachers thinking they know what teaching is like. I happen to work very hard at another job too so I know what working is....teaching is in a class of its own. All I'm saying is that as a teacher if you start pulling away summer teachers will leave. The salaries are very, very low and the work is super all encompassing on an emotional and physical level.


I would really like to understand. Do nurses, therapists, social workers for example not have all encompassing physical and emotional jobs? Do they not work many hours around the clock? Do others not put in hours outside of regular work hours?

We choose our jobs not only based on salary but what we find meaning or satisfaction in. If you chose the teaching profession, I assume you find satisfaction in it. You get many benefits that others don't, such as off on all erev YTs, Chol Hamoed, and a long vacation stretch in the summer. Never mind the tuition discounts that some are eligible for and no loss of income for all the YT days. Benefits are considered part of your overall salary. Add those all together and the compensation package is not as underpaid as you make it out to be.

I am not saying that teachers don't work hard, I am saying that so many other workers work equally hard. It is time to consider their workload and find a happy balance that accommodates both sides, and not only one side.
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amother




Blushpink
 

Post Mon, Aug 23 2021, 10:29 am
amother [ Dimgray ] wrote:
I'm tired of teachers pretending they have it so much harder than other workers. I think its time to mandate that teachers should first work elsewhere before accepting a teaching job. Yes, teachers work hard. But, get this, so do all the other people that work. Jobs are called work for a reason. They're hard and many people put in all kind of working hours and many people have stressful, all-time consuming jobs. It's not exclusive to teaching at all.

Lol, I've been teaching for many years. Public school and Jewish day schools. I've seen a lot of career changers start teaching and they all, with no exceptions, express surprise at how much harder they are working at teaching than their previous job, and how they didn't understand the demands of the job, emotionally, physically and timewise. Not all stay, many go back to their previous jobs. Mostly they are shocked that they have to do so much work at home, especially on the weekends!

(BTW, the trade off for summers is having a very rigid schedule during the year. I can't just come late one day and make it up. Very little leeway with taking time off for any reason other than personal illness. I've missed many a family Simcha because I can't take off Friday for a shabbos Sheva brachos or a morning bris that is not on a weekend. So, summers make up for it. And I took leave without pay for YT. Worked every erev YT, chol hamoed, Purim. Just like a "regular" job.
I do agree no reason for a 10 week summer. It's only the Jewish schools that do that, though. Public schools are usually in the 8 week range, sometimes less.)
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amother




Kiwi
 

Post Mon, Aug 23 2021, 10:33 am
amother [ Bellflower ] wrote:
And I'm tired of non teachers thinking they know what teaching is like. I happen to work very hard at another job too so I know what working is....teaching is in a class of its own. All I'm saying is that as a teacher if you start pulling away summer teachers will leave. The salaries are very, very low and the work is super all encompassing on an emotional and physical level.


This.
I've done both. Teaching is unlike any other job.
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sky




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Aug 23 2021, 10:47 am
amother [ Blushpink ] wrote:
Lol, I've been teaching for many years. Public school and Jewish day schools. I've seen a lot of career changers start teaching and they all, with no exceptions, express surprise at how much harder they are working at teaching than their previous job, and how they didn't understand the demands of the job, emotionally, physically and timewise. Not all stay, many go back to their previous jobs. Mostly they are shocked that they have to do so much work at home, especially on the weekends!

(BTW, the trade off for summers is having a very rigid schedule during the year. I can't just come late one day and make it up. Very little leeway with taking time off for any reason other than personal illness. I've missed many a family Simcha because I can't take off Friday for a shabbos Sheva brachos or a morning bris that is not on a weekend. So, summers make up for it. And I took leave without pay for YT. Worked every erev YT, chol hamoed, Purim. Just like a "regular" job.
I do agree no reason for a 10 week summer. It's only the Jewish schools that do that, though. Public schools are usually in the 8 week range, sometimes less.)


I guess it depends on the community.
In lkwd on Friday girl school is over by 11:45. (And only starts at 9:30 - I’m not even sure how it is considered a day of school. )
Even in the summer. Not sure how any mother works.
English is only Monday- Thursday. Some boys have Sunday but it’s becoming less common bec it’s impossible to find teachers that want to work sundays.
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amother




Mintcream
 

Post Mon, Aug 23 2021, 10:51 am
amother [ Dimgray ] wrote:
I'm tired of teachers pretending they have it so much harder than other workers. I think its time to mandate that teachers should first work elsewhere before accepting a teaching job. Yes, teachers work hard. But, get this, so do all the other people that work. Jobs are called work for a reason. They're hard and many people put in all kind of working hours and many people have stressful, all-time consuming jobs. It's not exclusive to teaching at all.

Many people are underpaid too for their particular work. Again, it's not exclusive to teachers. The kids get jumpy by June because of how the system is set up, they know that vacation is around the corner. It would be the same mentality whenever the vacation is scheduled. And perhaps they wouldn't be as jumpy, if they'd have the vacation scattered across the year.


Teachers are overworked AND underpaid AND under appreciated. Get back to us when you’ve worked as a teacher and then we can listen to your condescension.
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amother




Strawberry
 

Post Mon, Aug 23 2021, 11:10 am
Dim gray, your attitude towards teachers is really uncalled for. I’m physically nauseous from reading your harsh words. Teaching is unlike any other profession.

I am not a teacher but have tremendous respect for all those that give undivided physical and emotional energy towards our children.

There is no other job that works so hard and is so grossly underpaid.

It’s unfair the way you write and you sound very not in touch with the school system and the dynamics of kids and teachers in school.
I’m sure you are just very frustrated with the way things are, and understandably so, but still this is just too much.
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GLUE




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Aug 23 2021, 11:13 am
The purpose of this thread was not to bash teachers, but to complain that nobody in the school system cares about parents.
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amother




Dimgray
 

Post Mon, Aug 23 2021, 11:25 am
amother [ Strawberry ] wrote:
Dim gray, your attitude towards teachers is really uncalled for. I’m physically nauseous from reading your harsh words. Teaching is unlike any other profession.

I am not a teacher but have tremendous respect for all those that give undivided physical and emotional energy towards our children.

There is no other job that works so hard and is so grossly underpaid.

It’s unfair the way you write and you sound very not in touch with the school system and the dynamics of kids and teachers in school.
I’m sure you are just very frustrated with the way things are, and understandably so, but still this is just too much.


Why? Where have I denied that they work hard and that they have an emotional and physical challenges? All I have done is point out that other jobs have such challenges too. Why does the idea that others have tough jobs too cause in you such a severe reaction?

For those of you who say you have worked elsewhere. Have you worked in the healthcare environment as a HCP? Have you worked in a higher position in the corporate ladder that leaves you little time to breathe. I didnt say there doesn't exist jobs that are easier than teaching. I am pointing out though that there are other jobs other than teaching that are equally draining. With the necessity to earn higher wages, many of us are working in such fields that are extremely demanding.

Times have changed. We need to account for that idea that not all women are in secretarial or support roles. Many women are working in jobs with primary responsibilities and high demands. Being that our environment pushes women to enter high income fields, it is unfair to pretend they don't exist. It is unfair to ignore the new century needs of these households. Their numbers are only rising. Some sort of life balance needs to be incorporated, be it changing the schedule or be it dropping the high tuition that is pushing the women into these fields.

I get it - you want acknowledgement for your hard work, and you deserve it all. But you working hard doesn't discount the fact that others are working hard too. Forget about acknowledging their hard work, just give them some breathing room!
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amother




Strawberry
 

Post Mon, Aug 23 2021, 11:38 am
Dimgray, you really need to evaluate your position. It’s disheartening to read your posts I must say, and it must be more disheartening for teachers to read your posts.

One last point, you can’t have life both ways. You are upset that your kids have too much time off in the summer as you work hard and can’t take off. Ok, your field and job is a choice you personally made . We women make choices when choosing a career and flexibility in scheduling as a mother is usually a priority to most. Jobs that don’t afford that flexibility usually come with higher wages which are then used by moms in that position to send to camp or pay for childcare.
You can be a teacher and then you will be off in the summer and won’t have the issues you are griping about, but financially you will be tight and have other stresses as well.
As a parent whatever choices you made I’m sure were best for you and your family, so please stop blaming “ systems” and “schools” for your personal choices.

Good luck to you and enjoy the last days of summer!
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amother




Blushpink
 

Post Mon, Aug 23 2021, 11:47 am
sky wrote:
I guess it depends on the community.
In lkwd on Friday girl school is over by 11:45. (And only starts at 9:30 - I’m not even sure how it is considered a day of school. )
Even in the summer. Not sure how any mother works.
English is only Monday- Thursday. Some boys have Sunday but it’s becoming less common bec it’s impossible to find teachers that want to work sundays.

You are describing part time teaching. Most of my career has been fulltime. Mainly in public schools but also MO day schools. These days my official hours are 7:30 to 4. 5 days a week.
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amother




Dimgray
 

Post Mon, Aug 23 2021, 11:49 am
amother [ Strawberry ] wrote:
Dimgray, you really need to evaluate your position. I can’t keep on going back and forth with you as it’s emotionally draining but because you are very frustrated you are having a difficult time seeing the greater picture. It’s disheartening to read your posts I must say and it must be more disheartening for teachers to read your posts.

One last point, you can’t have life both ways. You are upset that your kids have too much time off in the summer as you work hard and can’t take off. Ok, your field and job is a choice you personally made . We women make choices when choosing a career and flexibility in scheduling as a mother is usually a priority to most. Jobs that don’t afford that flexibility usually come with higher wages which are then used by moms in that position to send to camp or pay for childcare.
You can be a teacher and then you will be off in the summer and won’t have the issues you are griping about, but financially you will be tight and have other stresses as well.
As a parent whatever choices you made I’m sure were best for you and your family, so please stop blaming “ systems” and “schools” for your personal choices.

Good luck to you and enjoy the last days of summer!


I feel that you are the one missing the big picture. You are looking at everything through the lens of teaching and can't seem to wrap your head around that others have tough jobs too. And you are taking that as a personal affront instead of having an objective discussion.

Yes, we all make our choices. As do teachers. They are full aware of the low pay, the hard work and all the lifestyle conveniences they get for it. So if others can't complain about the downside of their jobs, then so shouldn't teachers.

And it's not about having life both ways. It's having our environment match the pace of the 21st century. We women need to be parnossoh earners in this century. We women need to find jobs that pay well to pay the huge tuition burden of the 21st century. The tuition has been continuously adjusted to reflect the 21st century needs. We women have made the adjustments that reflect the 21st century needs. It's high time the schools make the adjustments that the 21st century needs instead of operating as if it's still the 1980s.
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amother




Blushpink
 

Post Mon, Aug 23 2021, 11:56 am
I don't think teacher salaries in frum schools have adjusted, though. Especially the female teachers/unmarried female teachers compared to male teachers. So, the low salary is a con, the schedule is a plus. Yeah, those people probably would leave if summer breaks were eliminated.
BTW, it took years for my public school district to extend the school day by 15 minutes. Because they had to raise every teacher's pay by the going rate and they didn't have the $ till covid money came in from the federal government. It all comes down to money, are you willing to have tuition raised so Jewish schools can pay teachers for extra days/weeks of work?
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amother




Kiwi
 

Post Mon, Aug 23 2021, 12:48 pm
amother [ Dimgray ] wrote:
Why? Where have I denied that they work hard and that they have an emotional and physical challenges? All I have done is point out that other jobs have such challenges too. Why does the idea that others have tough jobs too cause in you such a severe reaction?

For those of you who say you have worked elsewhere. Have you worked in the healthcare environment as a HCP? Have you worked in a higher position in the corporate ladder that leaves you little time to breathe. I didnt say there doesn't exist jobs that are easier than teaching. I am pointing out though that there are other jobs other than teaching that are equally draining. With the necessity to earn higher wages, many of us are working in such fields that are extremely demanding.

Times have changed. We need to account for that idea that not all women are in secretarial or support roles. Many women are working in jobs with primary responsibilities and high demands. Being that our environment pushes women to enter high income fields, it is unfair to pretend they don't exist. It is unfair to ignore the new century needs of these households. Their numbers are only rising. Some sort of life balance needs to be incorporated, be it changing the schedule or be it dropping the high tuition that is pushing the women into these fields.

I get it - you want acknowledgement for your hard work, and you deserve it all. But you working hard doesn't discount the fact that others are working hard too. Forget about acknowledging their hard work, just give them some breathing room!



Ok, let me guess. I know the type. If they extend the school year, you'll be the one complaining that they raised tuition and how can you afford all that extra money (that you claim you are paying now in extra child care anyway). And when they have to raise teacher's salaries to match the increased salaries you'll carry on how overpaid teachers are anyway cuz of all their vacation time?

(Happens to be that teacher salaries are calculated with all the vacation time in mind. Its not as if they are getting surprise free vacation days. For every vacation day eliminated they would need to raise salaries or the teachers would leave in droves.)
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amother




Pumpkin
 

Post Mon, Aug 23 2021, 1:00 pm
I live in England where we get around 5 weeks vacation in the summer. We also get 2 weeks off in the winter, then there's time off around yom tov and half term weekend breaks.
I struggle with my kids having 5 weeks off, I don't know how you all survive over 2 months of vacation.
I don't think kids benefit from such a long absence of no structure and lack of learning. Some vacation is important, but not that long.
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GLUE




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Aug 23 2021, 1:13 pm
amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:
I live in England where we get around 5 weeks vacation in the summer. We also get 2 weeks off in the winter, then there's time off around yom tov and half term weekend breaks.
I struggle with my kids having 5 weeks off, I don't know how you all survive over 2 months of vacation.


I have heard that the long summer it is easier to get childcare then when you just have a few weeks off. That is one of the arguments against full year school. That if school was year round they would have to give off a week here and a week there which would be a lot worse for the parents schedule, because it is harder to arrange childcare for only a week.
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amother




Freesia
 

Post Mon, Aug 23 2021, 1:20 pm
I just want to chime in here as a parent and former teacher. Summer vacation is important for children. They are not little adults, and they need a break. If you are working full time and can't be there for them, then enroll them in camp. Camp is a wonderful experience for children.

I would like to add that summer is a great time for family vacations. Imagine never being able to travel anywhere year-round because the kids are in school year-round.
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amother




Wine
 

Post Mon, Aug 23 2021, 1:24 pm
[quote="amother [ Kiwi ]"]Ok, let me guess. I know the type. If they extend the school year, you'll be the one complaining that they raised tuition and how can you afford all that extra money (that you claim you are paying now in extra child care anyway). And when they have to raise teacher's salaries to match the increased salaries you'll carry on how overpaid teachers are anyway cuz of all their vacation time?

(Happens to be that teacher salaries are calculated with all the vacation time in mind. Its not as if they are getting surprise free vacation days. For every vacation day eliminated they would need to raise salaries or the teachers would leave in droves.)[/quote]

We pay a full month's tuition in June each year, regardless of whether school ends that year on the 18th or 23rd. If they extended the year through the end of June, there'd be no reason to raise tuition.

You think we'd have no teachers left if they cut summer vacation down to 8 weeks? I sincerely hope our wonderful, devoted teachers are better than that! And like I mentioned upthread, they made this change for the boys in lkwd years ago (even more extreme as they cut down summer vacation to just 6 weeks) and amazingly, nothing catastrophic happened. The rebbeim did not leave in droves. And parents actually saved money on tuition/camp fees for one month.

Still not hearing a single valid argument as to why 8 weeks is not enough vacation time for our girls.
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amother




Wine
 

Post Mon, Aug 23 2021, 1:28 pm
amother [ Freesia ] wrote:
I just want to chime in here as a parent and former teacher. Summer vacation is important for children. They are not little adults, and they need a break. If you are working full time and can't be there for them, then enroll them in camp. Camp is a wonderful experience for children.

I would like to add that summer is a great time for family vacations. Imagine never being able to travel anywhere year-round because the kids are in school year-round.


Please read the points raised in this thread before jumping to conclusions. No one is saying to cut out summer vacation entirely. No one is saying to abolish camps. And camps aren't enough for working parents when they only run 8 weeks and the kids are off for more than 11. All we're asking for is the following:

#1: Cut summer vacation down from 11+ weeks to 8 weeks
#2: Synchronize the boys and girls school and camp schedule so that everyone is off at the same time

Why is that so complicated?
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