Our impressionable children

amother

Fri, Sep 10 2021, 1:06 am

My son is 18 and is borderline on the spectrum. He is completely mainstreamed but I often find it difficult to communicate effectively with him. He sees the world through a different prism than other people.

Today I had a conversation with him about something, and in the course of the conversation, he said something that bothered me because it was about doing something that wasn't so straight. I told him that its dishonest. He dismissed my concern, basically insinuating that I am quite extreme and normal people wouldn't have an issue with it.

At this point I told him that I find lately that he has no qualms about stretching the truth when it suits him. (Which is ironic, because in other ways, he is super blunt/honest, which is a feature if an Aspi kid.) There have been little things that have been bothering me, and each time I point it out to him, he thinks I am extreme.

Two examples:
1. In order to get a driver's license, you have to sign a paper saying that you had a certain number of hours of driving experience. When I took my older kids we actually clocked all the hours (50!). They counted the hours on a piece of paper, down to the minute. I would not sign a paper saying they had 50 hours if they did not. My girls claimed that NONE of their friends did that and none of their moms had a problem signing the paper. I refused to believe it. I don't see myself as being super honest. I think it's just either you are honest or you are dishonest.
My son, since he is 18 already would only need 10 hours. He claims you only need to know how to drive and it doesn't matter how many hours you had. I told him I would not sign a paper saying something that wasnt true. My son claimed that if I would as a Rav he's sure I would get a heter. I replied that I would never ask a Rav for a heter to lie in a situation that is not pikuach nefesh, in which case I would not have to ask altogether.

Another example is when my son joined a program in the summer where you need to come to daven with the minyan and learn every day for an hour and they pay you. My son would show up late to minyan and often schmooze while learning. I asked him how he could in good conscience take money when he is not fulfilling his terms. He answered that the people running the program know very well that the boys schmooze half the time. I was shocked that he said that I told him that I think it's not honest. It's one thing if you find yourself schmoozing a bit. But to go into it lechatchila with the attitude of its more about making the money, and never really planning to spend the full hour learning, I think is wrong. Once again, my son thinks I am extreme and out of touch.

Anyway, in the course of this conversation my son said, "and you want to know from whom I learned to be dishonest?? From my father!" He told me that he distinctly remembers going to a restaurant with my husband when he was 12. There was a lunch special that was free for kids under 12. My husband told the waiter that the kids were under 12. My son piped up that he was already 12. He claims my husband glared at him and repeated to the waiter that he was under 12. My son said that he repeated that he had just turned 12 a few days earlier and my husband again shut him down, all so that he would not have to pay for his food.

I was quite taken aback by this story. Firstly, this story is very uncharacteristic of my husband. In the 23 + years that I have known my husband, he has always been very straight and truthful. It is inconceivable to me that he would lie about my son's age (or anything) to save a few bucks. It just does not sound like him at all and is just a very stupid thing to do. I do not believe this story.

However, I told my son, if it really happened the way he remembers, I am sorry, but it is wrong. If I were there I definitely would have not been a party to it. I told him that as well as I know his father, this does not sound like something he would do, but if he did, it was a mistake.

(Thinking about it now, maybe it's possible that he had his hebrew birthday but not his English birthday. Or maybe the special was for kids 12 and under, not under 12. I know that when people remember stories, sometimes they remember wrong.) I can see that my husband may have glared at my son for interrupting him and not bothering to explain that the special was for kids 12 and under, or whatever his thoughts were. My husband always had a hard time communicating with my son.

Anyway. This is not something I would confront my husband about because he for sure would never remember this incident.

I am sharing it because I was once again reminded how impressionable our children are. They see everything we do and internalize it. If we say or do something that's not 100%, we are sending a message loud and clear. And no matter how much I repeat and repeat to my child that if you are not 100% honest, you are automatically dishonest, nothing I say will overcome this memory (flawed or not) that he has of his father lying to save a few bucks. Sad

amother

Fri, Sep 10 2021, 1:48 am

#BestBubby wrote:

I think you son's attitude comes more from how his friends think, then the incident with his father.

This is sad, but I think this dishonest attitude is common, especially in the younger generation.

As the Non-Jewish world goes, so goes the Jewish world.

I guess your right, and I literally cannot wrap my head around it.

Years ago I taught limudei kodesh in a Bais Yaakov. Once, I happened to be driving one of my students home in my car. At some point I said that I forgot to go to the library the day before to return some books, and now I would have to pay a late fine.

My student jumped in with some helpful advice , suggesting that I tell the librarian that I thought the library was closed yesterday since it was a legal holiday.

I looked at her strangely. I said, "you're suggesting I lie to save a few pennies?"

She smoothly said, "it's not lying. You could have really thought the library was closed..."

This story sticks in my mind because
1. She was so quick to come up with a lie
2. She was not even embarrassed to mention it to her chumash teacher
3. Even when I called her out on the lie, she doubled down and repeated it. She didn't even recognize the lie for what it was!
4. To lie when the stakes are high I can at least understand. It's totally wrong but I can see the struggle. But to lie for pennies?? I just don't get it..

imasinger

Fri, Sep 10 2021, 6:59 am

It's not unusual with ASD to be unclear on when and how people bend the truth. And most people are at least tempted.

What's your relationship like with this DS, and the rest of your kids, in general? Do they see you as overly critical or judgmental? Are you comfortable sharing your own minor struggles with the grown ones?

I'm worried if your DS is dismissive and sees you as unrealistically obsessed with truth. He needs to know that you're solidly in his camp, that you respect and appreciate him overall. Otherwise, taking him to task for honesty is just going to be one more thing you bother him about.

In your example #1, that's about you. You are in charge of when and how you sign your name. If I were in your shoes and DS actually suggested this, I'd have him go with DH or myself to ask the question to the rav. Let him hear it directly that no, it's not okay. Let him be able to ask about whatever possessed him to think it might be.

The only reason I can think of that someone wouldn't follow up with a rav is if they were concerned about what the rav would then think of them. In other words, a minor bending of the truth in order to feel better. And we don't want to go there.

In your example #2, I'd back off. "Maybe you're right and that's how the people running the program are thinking. And I know that sitting and learning for long chunks of time can be really hard." What's the point of guilt tripping him? It's not going to do good things.

As to the last bit, his statement that he learned how to lie from his father in the restaurant, I'd try to forget you heard it. As you point out, it's out of character for DH, and beside the point anyway. If my kid said, "I learned to lie/cheat/steal/etc from my parent", I'd say (from a place of live, and at a time when mussar was likely to be heard), "you're old enough now that if you see us doing something that bothers you, I invite you to respectfully share your thoughts. Chances are, you might have missed an opportunity to be dl"z. But even if you did see us doing something really wrong, does that mean you should emulate it? I'm sure there are times when you've seen friends doing something that you would never do, regardless of their example. As an adult, you have been given the ability to live up to what you know is the best choice, even when others don't. That's not easy at all. But it is possible. I see you as a very honest person (give examples from the past that you referred to in your OP), and I'd hate to see you lose that."

Last note. It's fantastic that your DS is learning to drive! Many people with HFA either don't get their license, or are not comfortable doing much driving once they do. Kol hakavod to you both.

amother

Fri, Sep 10 2021, 8:25 am

imasinger wrote:

This is a very insightful post, thank you.
My relationship with the rest of the kids is very good bH. They don't see me as overly critical or judgemental, because I am not. I am actually very easygoing by nature. In most areas I tend to be quite relaxed and non judgemental even to a fault.

But It's true that when it comes to honesty I am sort of a black and white thinker. Either it's the truth or its sheker.

I once learned that when it comes to middos, one always has to try to be a balanced person. Meaning, you shouldn't be too generous or too thrifty, too easygoing or too disciplined...one should always aim to be balanced, not too much to either extreme.

But when it comes to the midda of Emes, there is no continuum. The second you go away from Emes, you are already in sheker. That is why the Torah says "midvar sheker tirchak" you need to distance yourself from sheker. It doesn't use the word tirchak in any other midda or mitzva.

Anyway..when it comes to this son, he does tend to view me as too extreme, and I think Best Bubby is correct, that young kids tend to follow their peers. You are also correct that as an ASD child, he had his own unique way of viewing things.

My relationship with him is pretty good but we do get into things that have us going in circles at times, when our viewpoints clash. But this is something I can discuss with his therapist.

You make a good point about asking a Rav. I didn't think of it but it would totally be a good idea for him to ask a Rav or one of his rebbeim. I can't imagine his rebbe would say it's ok to lie but it would be good to discuss it. Either way, I am still in charge of how and when to sign my name and that is something he needs to respect.

As to the second example, you are right that maybe I shouldn't be guilt tripping him about the learning, but his obsession with making money is another one of those topics that we seem to get into these endless loops. He joined the program so that he could earn money (which is fine and age appropriate) but his cavalier attitude on keeping to his end really bothered me.
I love the last point you said about him being old enough to use his own judgement to do what's right and not emulate something that is wrong. and I wish I would have used the opportunity to say it the way you put it down. Looking back, he used that story to absolve himself but also to point out that we are hypocrites, which is one of his tactics in arguing. Again, an ASD trait.

Unfortunately, I find myself moving into "lecture" mode with this child too often since he seems to always push my buttons.

As far as driving goes, he hasn't gotten behind a wheel yet, which is what he was complaining about. He claims all of his friends drive already and only his mother is holding him back. I told him that now that he is 18, he is welcome to start the process, but he needs to first take the written test. I was not ready to even discuss it before this.

amother

Fri, Sep 10 2021, 8:37 am

amother [ DarkCyan ] wrote:

This I remember as a kid we had some kind of davening contest if you davened on shabos and yom tov you bring to school a signed paper and you got a prize or something. My parents always insisted that the davening had to be out loud and at a certain time (before the meal) I never got that prize when everyone else in my class got it. You can't be holy at the expense of your children it's just not fair to them.

I agree that what your parents did to you was unfair, but not because they were being "holy", but because they were adding on conditions to the contest. Unless it clearly stated these conditions on the sheet and your parents were just enforcing it, they were manipulating you to do things on their standard and "blaming" it on the teacher.

On the other hand, I have heard of parents (here on Imamother) who would have no qualms about signing a paper attesting to something their kid did even if they didn't, just so they wouldn't lose out on the prize. I think this is abhorrent. The rebbe/teacher has a certain trust in the parents word that the parent violates when he or she lies, aside from stealing the prize and teaching the child it's ok to lie.

In my case, I wasnt involved in the learning program. Whether or not he got paid did not depend on my signing a paper. So I had no room to be "holy" at his expense. I was merely sharing my discomfort with him (as it came up on the conversation) with how he said "it's ok, the people running the program know that the kids are schmoozing most of the time instead of learning and they dont mind."

Again, I think it's a result of his being on the spectrum that he thinks certain things and I find myself frequently needing to "translate" reality to him. (If the program director would refuse to pay him at the end because of his lateness and schmoozing, he shouldn't feel like he was cheated, especially if this was clearly communicated from the start. )