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Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Rosh Hashana-Yom Kippur
So angry, can't forgive this year. Chizuk?
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 12 2021, 12:17 pm
Simple1 wrote:
I always wondered about this. If a person did what's right for them (such as set boundaries) but the other person is very very hurt, do they need forgiveness?


So let's say that you are the employer of a company and an employee who doesn't work hard wants a raise. That's not a very valuable employee so you are forced to turn down the request and the employee is hurt. You don't owe him an apology unless you were callous in the way you denied the request.
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amother
Sapphire


 

Post Sun, Sep 12 2021, 12:18 pm
Also you said you feel like your anger is out of control while the hurt and pain is less.

Many times anger is a "protector" feeling - it pours our hurt and pain outward towards an external person/situation. The thing is until we accept and hold and be there for the hurt, the stronger it gets (demanding its attention) and the angrier we get (the anger stepping in and protecting us from the pain). This is why you see some people get angrier and more bitter over an old hurt over time....

Again I really recommend therapy and an experiential modality like IFS, SE.... vs. something like CBT or DBT (unless you are experiencing dysregulation and need that kind of work to be able to do the deeper more experiential work)
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amother
Hyacinth


 

Post Sun, Sep 12 2021, 12:27 pm
Halachikly I don’t think you need to forgive them.

However, for your own sake you’d want to lessen the hatred. (Unless it’s truly evil, non Jewish people. In that case I’d only work to lessen the hatred to the degree of it not interfering with your daily functioning.)

I’ve had people who hurt me quite terribly, with permanent effects. I “forgave” them every Yom Kippur. But I didn’t really. I really still despised them. Until I made a conscious decision to forgive them, not because they deserved it, but because it was good for me. I did this in two ways:

Understanding, but really understanding, that in essence I may not be any better than them. For if I were in their position, including but not limited to their upbringing, their circumstances, their personalities and minds, I would’ve done just the same. So am “I” really better, or have I only been gifted with different circumstances and a wiser mind and kinder heart? Humbling myself to that acknowledgment helped ease my anger until I was able to shift my anger into thanking Hashem for not making me them as the perpetrator, but rather me as the victim. Because, if given the choice (and assuming we were), I would’ve chosen to be in this position over being someone capable of doing what they did.

I also did imageries of them acknowledging their wrongdoings, truly apologizing, as well as me verbally forgiving them. And then watching them fade into oblivion. This step was really important, and helped fade them from my constant conscious thoughts.

I hope this was helpful in some way.

(Btw, I tell my kids, that forgiving those who hurt them doesn’t absolve those people of their sins. They must still do complete teshuva. The forgiveness is only for yourself.)
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amother
Cyclamen


 

Post Sun, Sep 12 2021, 12:33 pm
Someone misled and manipulated me in doing something that caused terrible irrevocable damage to me and my family almost twenty five years ago. She was well meaning but in the sense that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Had I been a close friend of hers she never would have acted that way.

She did ask forgiveness a year later but in a certain way she made things even worse when she did. She basically told me that I should have realized not to listen to her and should have put up more resistance to her pressure and manipulation. Not only that, she made it clear that she was knowingly hiding information from me and didn't really believe what she was saying at the time.

Years ago I used to daven that Hashem punish her. Today I daven that Hashem should make her sincerely ask for forgiveness and we can bring closure to this issue. I also try to think that I forgive to the extent that I can even if it isn't complete.
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dena613




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 12 2021, 12:35 pm
Since even is one supposed to forgive Nazis and terrorists???? We are not the Amish.
Mesan'echa Hashem esna!
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hardworking mom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 12 2021, 12:41 pm
You feel like you need medication because your angry at someone? In that case I need a bucket load of meds because I will never forgive the ppl who hurt me not ever.
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amother
Foxglove


 

Post Sun, Sep 12 2021, 12:58 pm
These are my personal feelings towards the concept and please discount it if you don't feel it's helpful.
When something is fresh and raw, the anger is like a living pulsating being. There's no way to reduce it and nor do you want to. As time goes on, it slowly seems to diminish slightly and you can see past it to understand that the person you are hurting most is actually yourself.
Ploni or group of plonis don't care about your hatred, they're carrying on their daily lives quite happily. It's you who lives with this anger on a daily basis.
I don't think you need to forgive them at this point, but you might want to consider working through the pain for your sake so you can find some measure of peace. I can't say I totally forgive all the people that really deeply hurt me over the years, but I am more okay with it that I used to be. I'm able to see past myself to understand the flawed nature of humans and that people aren't always able to overcome their baser natures to be the people they should be. When I'm on the level (and I'm not always), I am able to accept that this is G-d's will and this is what He wanted for me. I might not get why, but for some reason this had to happen to me. Why it had to be those people is a totally different question and is about bechirah but that is between them and G-d, not between me and them.
I hope op you find peace and healing for your sake.
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amother
Blueberry


 

Post Sun, Sep 12 2021, 1:09 pm
I was hurt by a many people (who probably thought it was justified). One particular person severely hurt and damaged my beloved family. I used to feel like wishing them the absolute worst and when I was having some of my darkest moments, those wishes slipped out of my mouth and I said it. It felt good for a bit, but only strengthened my anger which kept eating me up inside. I later found out, that it's written in the gemara some troublesome things about people who cause others to be punished by hashem. So for my own sake, I stopped that behavior.

It's been terribly painful and difficult. The anger burns in me, but I have found more helpful outlets. I've written tens of angry letters (without sending) to this person and others who've hurt me. I find the letters so therapeutic. I also worked with a trauma therapist. I began to reassure myself that hashem was the one who wanted me to go through this experience. Which takes away this person's power over me. Ha, you think you got me good. You don't realize that you are just a Shliach of hashem (and not a very good one at that since megalglin chov al yedei chayov).
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amother
OP


 

Post Sun, Sep 12 2021, 1:18 pm
hardworking mom wrote:
You feel like you need medication because your angry at someone? In that case I need a bucket load of meds because I will never forgive the ppl who hurt me not ever.


It's a really intense anger that makes me fantasize violence, ball my fists and shake in anger. If I'm alone, sometimes I scream until my throat hurts. Anger episodes come and go but I usually have at least one a day, and they can last several hours.
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amother
Blueberry


 

Post Sun, Sep 12 2021, 1:28 pm
Are there any children in the picture? If not can you take a brisk walk to walk off the anger during these episodes? Write those letters, let yourself cry it out as much as you want. Give yourself hugs if you don't have support. If you have supportive people, ask them for a tight hug. Look up some jokes to make you feel better.
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ssspectacular




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 12 2021, 1:33 pm
Definitely don't worry about forgiving (now or ever). But to me your anger sounds very extreme. Are you keeping it all in? Please talk to somebody so you can get some of this out.
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amother
Firethorn


 

Post Sun, Sep 12 2021, 1:37 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
It's a really intense anger that makes me fantasize violence, ball my fists and shake in anger. If I'm alone, sometimes I scream until my throat hurts. Anger episodes come and go but I usually have at least one a day, and they can last several hours.
you dont need meds therapy mabe to help you talk over what happened but not medication. Dont fall into the trap of todays society where if you dont follow the rules you need pills. It would help if we would start calling it drugs
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jflower




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 12 2021, 1:41 pm
singleagain wrote:
The first RH/YK after a thing is intense. My ex walked out on me the month before, in August. Everyone I expressed this concern about not being able to forgive reassured me that it's ok and I don't have to. I'm not obligated to forgive when everything is still raw.

Wanting God to punish the person can be a bit extreme, if you have a specific punishment in mind. However, it could be totally appropriate. I maybe would tweak it a little, maybe ask God to give out the appropriate justice in this case, whatever that is. Justice and not punishment. Mainly bc, if you ask for something specific and it doesn't happen, or doesn't happen publicly, you don't want to feel betrayed by God. But if you ask God to exact His judgement on the perpetrator, even if it's something you don't see, hopefully it can set your mind at ease knowing God has your back.

You can also daven that God helps you work through the anger in a positive way. That if you feel you should be in therapy or on meds, that God will help you find the right shaliach quickly and that finances will not be a problem. Ask that God soften your heart and for Him to help you let go of your anger. Ask God to help you find meaning in the thing and the after effects.

I hope these words are helpful and not hurtful and if they are hurtful I hope you can forgive me for causing pain on top of pain.


This was a beautiful post. Thanks.
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singleagain




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 12 2021, 3:01 pm
OP, I'm concerned about the way you explain your anger so strong and violent after twenty years. Usually these things ease with time. You don't have to answer anything here. But was there something more personal? Did you lose someone that day? Of course, that pain is hard to fathom and even harder to deal with because there was so much loss. And maybe your personal loss was never acknowledged. Even if you didn't have a personal person you lost, did you have a different type of loss... Innocence or security? Finding a way to deal with those emotions is crucial to healing.

Even if the wait for therapy is long, put yourself on the list. Then look for grief groups, and support communities online. Maybe there are messages boards like this where people are discussing the event. Reddit or Facebook even. This is one time when internet is a good tool.
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pinkpeonies




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 12 2021, 7:42 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
You raise a totally different question.

Mine is like the 9-11 terrorists thinking it was right to kill innocent people because that's what the Taliban told them Allah wanted.


al-quaida, not the taliban...
can I ask? did this group of people do something specifically to you? or something you dont approve of?
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pinkpeonies




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 12 2021, 7:45 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
It's a really intense anger that makes me fantasize violence, ball my fists and shake in anger. If I'm alone, sometimes I scream until my throat hurts. Anger episodes come and go but I usually have at least one a day, and they can last several hours.


this is really scaring me. this kind of anger is so so far from normal. ive never seen or heard anything like it. (and I have seen people close to me be seriously hurt or damaged)
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amother
Taupe


 

Post Sun, Sep 12 2021, 7:51 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
No because it is not one person it is a large group of people. This isn't it -- but let's just say my anger was at the people who caused 9-11. I don't know who most of them are, and most of them probably think they actually did the right thing.

You can move on without forgiving.
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Simple1




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 12 2021, 8:04 pm
Sorry maybe I didn't understand your post, but are you angry at the 9/11 terrorists? if so, you do not need to forgive. More helpful would be working on Emunah - not so easy at all, but maybe you can read or watch small clips daily. Or maybe a trauma therapist since you seem very affected.
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amother
Firethorn


 

Post Sun, Sep 12 2021, 9:25 pm
amother [ Taupe ] wrote:
You can move on without forgiving.
yes! I know I have it takes a while and in the begining all I could think about was how mean they were but now its almost two years later and I have a normal job and am much happier. Dont get me wrong I still hate them with all my heart and I still think about the money they owe me (I would be able to buy a house by now) I remember once when I said im not mochel the money one of the ppl who wronged me said its an aveirah not to forgive its not its an aveirah to steal lie and mistreat ppl
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amother
OP


 

Post Mon, Sep 13 2021, 2:16 am
amother [ Blueberry ] wrote:
Are there any children in the picture? If not can you take a brisk walk to walk off the anger during these episodes? Write those letters, let yourself cry it out as much as you want. Give yourself hugs if you don't have support. If you have supportive people, ask them for a tight hug. Look up some jokes to make you feel better.


Yes, there are children. I can do exercise at home (intense exercise videos) though, but it doesn't help much. It doesn't seem to lessen the anger, but it does add a little bit of happiness/pride that I did something good for myself. I try to do this at least 2 x a week and it is definitely good for me, but not a solution to the anger.
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