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Chayalle




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2021, 9:53 am
doodlesmom wrote:
So let’s remind mom that she not only doesn’t have to but shouldn’t host grandma since it’s hard on her, and she has no obligations to her. She only has obligations to her kids who she chose to have.

Let grandma figure her own life out without burdening anyone. Who does she think she is.


Sorry but there needs to be some middle ground here. While children aren’t parents maids etc, anyone taking from a system should an appropriate point start giving within the system. Life is a give and take.


mom should realistically discuss with husband, Rav, etc...what the needs of her household are and whether Mom's needs can be addressed there, and what her obligations are. There needs to be a plan. If Mom is going to end up overwhelmed, sleep deprived, and FURIOUS with everyone (just borrowing the emotion of that other thread) then there needs to be a better plan if she's gonna host Mom.

The Torah and Mitzvos were given to us with the caveat of "V'Chai Bahen". We aren't supposed to drop dead or harm ourselves and our families while doing mitzvos. That's where a Rav comes in, and the need for planning, not just taking on what our families cannot handle and saying oh well, we have obligations.

How's that for middle ground.
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Zehava




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2021, 9:58 am
doodlesmom wrote:
When do you stop being so opinionated as to how much a child does for a parent? At 18 you’re quite aggressively claiming that the child owes nothing….and then?

As you may or may not have noticed I am a big proponent of choice. When a person has free will to make a decision they are empowered to take responsibility. By contrast if anyone of any age feels forced into something they will feel helpless and abdicate responsibility.
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doodlesmom




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2021, 10:08 am
Chayalle wrote:
mom should realistically discuss with husband, Rav, etc...what the needs of her household are and whether Mom's needs can be addressed there, and what her obligations are. There needs to be a plan. If Mom is going to end up overwhelmed, sleep deprived, and FURIOUS with everyone (just borrowing the emotion of that other thread) then there needs to be a better plan if she's gonna host Mom.

The Torah and Mitzvos were given to us with the caveat of "V'Chai Bahen". We aren't supposed to drop dead or harm ourselves and our families while doing mitzvos. That's where a Rav comes in, and the need for planning, not just taking on what our families cannot handle and saying oh well, we have obligations.

How's that for middle ground.


I agree 100%.

And think that maybe the same attitude goes for adult/teen children. Maybe they should discuss with parents, rav coach etc. how much one should give into a system that they are taking from without getting overwhelmed parentified etc.
There is no way the answer will be….your not obligated or expected to do a darn thing.

Talking as a parent who never gave over any responsibility to kids, but do expect a certain amount of cooperation to make our household work in a system of giving and receiving.
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Chayalle




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2021, 10:14 am
doodlesmom wrote:
I agree 100%.

And think that maybe the same attitude goes for adult/teen children. Maybe they should discuss with parents, rav coach etc. how much one should give into a system that they are taking from without getting overwhelmed parentified etc.
There is no way the answer will be….your not obligated or expected to do a darn thing.

Talking as a parent who never gave over any responsibility to kids, but do expect a certain amount of cooperation to make our household work in a system of giving and receiving.


Agree, and I actually had a relationship with a Rav when I was an older teen. I'm very pro older kids having someone to ask their questions to. A mentor/teacher/Rav whatever works.

I also think running a family is a team effort. My own parenting mentor (Mrs. Leah Trenk) says we can discuss with our kids whether they plan on running their own homes solo, or whether they think they might need help. And helping at home builds kids, when done the right way.

But I'm for a plan, and discussion. An overwhelmed parent informing their older teen or adult child what they had better do right now is likely to result in the exact fury the OP of the other thread describes.

Or as a saying I've seen goes - Failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.

I bet that DD likely feels this way.
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doodlesmom




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2021, 10:20 am
Zehava wrote:
As you may or may not have noticed I am a big proponent of choice. When a person has free will to make a decision they are empowered to take responsibility. By contrast if anyone of any age feels forced into something they will feel helpless and abdicate responsibility.


I agree in general. But there would definitely be times that I would override this…

As for watching grandma…I would not ask a child to. Not age appropriate giving.

Peeling veggies while mom is cooking for the family I would. If they wouldn’t want to I’d judge each situation accordingly.
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amother




Lotus
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2021, 10:48 am
Who says mom invited grandma? Maybe she invited herself. She wants to be with family for YT and she said she's coming.

So what happens now? Does mom refuse to host her because, well, parentification and all that?
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amother




Blush
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2021, 10:54 am
amother [ Lotus ] wrote:
Who says mom invited grandma? Maybe she invited herself. She wants to be with family for YT and she said she's coming.

So what happens now? Does mom refuse to host her because, well, parentification and all that?

Unlikely with dementia
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Zehava




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2021, 10:57 am
amother [ Lotus ] wrote:
Who says mom invited grandma? Maybe she invited herself. She wants to be with family for YT and she said she's coming.

So what happens now? Does mom refuse to host her because, well, parentification and all that?

If grandma is of sound mind, that’s just rude. If she isn’t she’s probably not making her own arrangements.
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amother




Lotus
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2021, 2:05 pm
Zehava wrote:
If grandma is of sound mind, that’s just rude. If she isn’t she’s probably not making her own arrangements.


Actually, people with dementia often have episodes of lucidity, so this absolutely can happen.

Or, just to make things interesting, maybe grandma comes along with grandpa who insists on spending YT at his daughter's house-together with his wife.

Also, I'm curious. Why do you consider it rude for a grown adult daughter to refuse the very taxing job of hosting mom for YT (yes, even without dementia hosting can be draining, even for family members) but you consider it perfectly fine for a young adult daughter of marriageable age to refuse to help her mother for 20 minutes?

When does it change?
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Zehava




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2021, 2:24 pm
amother [ Lotus ] wrote:
Actually, people with dementia often have episodes of lucidity, so this absolutely can happen.

Or, just to make things interesting, maybe grandma comes along with grandpa who insists on spending YT at his daughter's house-together with his wife.

Also, I'm curious. Why do you consider it rude for a grown adult daughter to refuse the very taxing job of hosting mom for YT (yes, even without dementia hosting can be draining, even for family members) but you consider it perfectly fine for a young adult daughter of marriageable age to refuse to help her mother for 20 minutes?

When does it change?

It’s rude for grandpa or grandma or anyone really to insist on spending YT at daughters house. It’s not rude for grown adult daughter to refuse.
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amother




Cyclamen
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2021, 4:12 pm
Zehava wrote:
It’s rude for grandpa or grandma or anyone really to insist on spending YT at daughters house. It’s not rude for grown adult daughter to refuse.


Depends on the situation. My dad is a widower and he automatically always comes for shabbos and Yom tov. To refuse? He should be home alone? Unthinkable! He is my Dad!!!
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amother




Lotus
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2021, 5:20 pm
Zehava wrote:
It’s rude for grandpa or grandma or anyone really to insist on spending YT at daughters house. It’s not rude for grown adult daughter to refuse.


Interesting. So you believe it's never rude or plain out wrong for a child to refuse a parent's request, no matter how old that child is or how needy the parent is.

I just can't wrap my head around this mentality.
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Zehava




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2021, 5:22 pm
amother [ Lotus ] wrote:
Interesting. So you believe it's never rude or plain out wrong for a child to refuse a parent's request, no matter how old that child is or how needy the parent is.

I just can't wrap my head around this mentality.

Bingo
As I said in a different thread, it’s all about choice. When we have choice, we take responsibility, and vice versa.
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amother




Bone
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2021, 5:45 pm
amother [ Foxglove ] wrote:
It is called the 'me generation' for a reason.

Huh? How is it self-centered for a mother not to want her children to shoulder too many of her responsibilities? That's LESS self-centered, not more.
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amother




OP
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2021, 6:26 pm
Wow, I don’t even know what to make of the reactions and responses here. Clearly my upbringing, experience and parenting style is very different.
The expectations and assumptions about people with dementia, it’s very different than mine. Not only did my grandparent have dementia for more than 10 years, and my mother was the primary caregiver, but also in a professional capacity. I have worked on the dementia unit in a nursing home, and in other capacities with both dementia patients and their caregivers. Most dementia patients, as long as they’re not in the final stages of Alzheimer’s, can be redirected. (And most are usually pleasant as long as you smile and keep saying nice and positive things). Typically that includes showing them the same photo album over and over, cutting them off when they go to the door and try to leave- telling them that they will have dinner first, or taking their hand and directing them away from the kitchen, when they start to go near the stove, telling them that there and esteemed guest, and don’t need to cook, and that they should read a story with you. For a period of an hour or two, it is usually not that complicated. My 6 year old can do it.
Additionally, aren’t families teams? Don’t you help out whenever you can, yet have the right to refuse? If a parent asks you to do a favor, or if you feel like you should have a parent so that they’re not alone, you do what you can as long as you are able, and if it passes the point when you are able, then you say no. You are not required to always say yes, but you should as long as you are able to. Yes, that means that I do ask my children to help with whatever it is or if Shabbos, and do not say no if they were just hanging out with each other (I do not interfere with social lives) but if they have a reason, valid in their mind -even if it is just that they had a really hard day, are in a bad mood, and need to decompress. They have the right of refusal, they just typically don’t exercise that right, as they know it’s just not shayach. It’s a respect on both ends. I am so bewildered and confused. Are people here so demanding or so lazy and selfish or alternatively so horribly scarred? Why wouldn’t you help if you have the ability? Obviously I would never expect my child to help in the bathroom with a grandparent, but reading them the devar Torah that they are going to share later at the table and showing them the pictures from vacation (again) to keep Grandma out of my kitchen while I am cooking, is really not a terrible ask. And it’s OK for your child to be exposed to and understand that sometimes as we get older we become frail and/or cognitively impaired, and that we need to show kavod, chessed, patience and kindness.
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