What are boundaries?

Zehava

Mon, Sep 13 2021, 9:28 pm

bigsis144 wrote:

(deep breath, I think I’m less fight-or-flight now. I’ll step away again if I get triggered)

Okay, so how’s this:

A boundary is a parental expectation, or a finish line that they commit to helping their child reach?

If it’s important enough, they will never let it slide. The parent must take ownership for helping the child reach that milestone.

So, stating an expectation in a positive way: I expect DC11 to stay in a room peacefully with DC8 for 30 minutes”.

It is now the parent’s job to:
1) communicate this expectation to the kids, (because you can’t live up to an expectation you don’t even know about. To retroactively inform them means they will only know when they are doing it wrong)

2) communicate with both kids about any trouble they would have upholding this expectation, and try to help them deal with any triggers that would prevent them from living up to it (maybe they can’t be left to their own devices, but if each had an agreed-upon place to sit and a book to read, they could uphold this expectation)

3) if the kids can’t do that, decide if the boundary needs revision, or if you just shouldn’t put kids into a situation that they don’t have the skills to live up to.

To get away from sensitive parenting examples:
Boundary = “my child must be water-safe”.

* If a kid can’t swim, teach them.
* If they have trouble learning, figure out how to make swimming lessons appealing (and that may vary from kid to kid - for one kid, it’s goggles to keep the chlorine from stinging their eyes, while for another it’s lessons in a heated pool, or lessons together with a buddy).
* If that doesn’t work, you’ll have to keep them away from water.

You didn’t change the expectation/boundary to be safe around water, but you took the child’s needs and skills into account.

Yes you got it right

Zehava

Mon, Sep 13 2021, 9:31 pm

amother [ Feverfew ] wrote:

Any suggestions for when the kids are ok with boundaries but the father is not(parenting is hard for him and resorts to tactics that take less effort) For example kids are used to only having treats on shabbos and yom tov, but then their father gives them loads of ice pops after school “they kept taking more” (usually he is not alone with the kids).

It’s hard. Nonviolent communication is a great resource for basically transferring those parenting skills into your marriage and learn to communicate effectively.
Also, differentiate what’s truly important. It’s more important for your kids to see a healthy marriage than to not have ice pops after school.
Then again there are non-negotiables in which you do have to put your foot down such as safety.

amother

Forsythia

Mon, Sep 13 2021, 10:35 pm

amother [ Vanilla ] wrote:

In my experience the people who say I don’t allow have never dealt with an extremely difficult child. (usually pandas aka autoimmune encephalitis)
Cool cool you don’t allow. Now what.

Don’t want to hijack this thread but what do you mean by this? What happened to the concept of some kids being more strong willed, defiant, argumentative, etc by nature? I have a very difficult 5 year old, why should I think he has a medical condition vs a naturally more difficult personality? I am asking honestly, not trying to get into a debate here.

amother

Ballota

Tue, Sep 14 2021, 12:45 am

tp3 wrote:

My son has a ton of energy, a punching bag is his best friend. When there is no punching bag, he looks for ways to release that energy. Over the years he's tamed down and no longer releases his energy on the people around him. But yes it was an issue that we had to deal with. Keeping him busy and active helped tremendously.
To my major annoyance he'd use his younger brother as a sounding board and teach him all this stuff. Play fighting games with him. Etc. Luckily this is not my next son's nature at all and I knew he'd outgrow it as soon as he gets interested in something else.
I look back to see how much he grew over the years and I'm amazed. I never would have seen the progress if I didn't know what to look for. He has so many special things about him that people who really know him understand he is a treasure. Fighting is part of his nature and there is nothing I can do to change that. I firmly believe in working with a child and not against a child. Every middah can be used either negatively or positively and it is my job to channel it a certain way. I had to majorly adjust my boundaries to accommodate my son's nature. I constantly told him over the years that I am on his side. That I will never be against him. That I will always fight for him, no matter what.
Once in a while when he thinks something is unfair, he mouths off to me in an unpleasant manner. I'm pretty sure the things he says would shock most parents lol. I'm not fazed. He is still growing up and I'm sure this will mellow out as well. I calmly tell him that I expect him to be respectful and to communicate his thoughts in a proper way. I reiterate it as many times as I need to in order for him to see that this boundary cannot be crossed.
In the meantime, keeping him very busy and engaged in active energy-burning activities, keeps him going. When he comes home I tell him how happy I am to see him. I give him a ton of positive attention because I know that some of the restlessness within him comes from a feeling of insecurity deep inside.

I hope that answers your question. We can allow or not allow anything we fancy but our kids surprise us. And that's how it should be. Our kids are our teachers and that's how we grow to become better people.

I have a 10 year old that sound like this! Please share some ideas what you did to keep him very busy and engaged in active energy-burning activities.

amother

Melon

Tue, Sep 14 2021, 1:21 am

Zehava wrote:

By the parent upholding the boundary.
Examples: no screentime, device has a passcode and/or is put away
No treats before dinner, treats aren’t given
If a child comes in late, they show you they possibly can’t be trusted to stay out this long.
Etc.

This thing about enforcing. I never get it.
So my children are always fighting physically. I do not allow it. I insist that they stop. I tell them they will not earn the next treat. They don't care. They continue. It goes on an on. Stops and starts again. So how do I enforce this rule/boundary? What's the magic answer????

LovesHashem

Tue, Sep 14 2021, 1:32 am

amother [ Forsythia ] wrote:

Strong willed and argumentive can be nature.

But defiance and violence and hurting people usually speak to a deeper problem than just personality.

salt

Tue, Sep 14 2021, 1:49 am

bigsis144 wrote:

I don't completely understand your example of 2 kids playing calmly in the room together for 30 minutes.
What do you do if they don't live up to this expectation? Say I need to speak to someone about something important for 30 minutes, and I need DS8 and DS11 to occupy themselves peacefully for that time. No other choice, this is an emergency meeting, and I don't have a babysitter.

I communicate this with them (#1), and they promise they'll have no trouble, they've both got a nice book to read (#2). After 10 minutes you hear screaming and fighting.
So what is #3 ?

Zehava

Tue, Sep 14 2021, 1:59 am

amother [ Melon ] wrote:

There’s something called protective use of force. In this case, you physically get in the middle and stop it using force, not in a hurtful way, but in a protective way. Depending on the age of the child you either physically block them from getting at each other, or remove one of the children from the situation. There have been times that without a choice I’ve locked one child out of the room, and other times when I locked myself in a room WITH a child, until they calmed down. I’ve also done things to help them calm down in that time like jumping up and down to release the energy.

tp3

Tue, Sep 14 2021, 4:21 am

amother [ Ballota ] wrote:

I have a 10 year old that sound like this! Please share some ideas what you did to keep him very busy and engaged in active energy-burning activities.

Organized sports for hours after school. He plays hard, loves basketball and tackle football.
Biking around town, running errands for me.
Overnight camp was a must for him, summer after summer.
Now his yeshiva takes him to a gym every week and he loves lifting weights and the exercise machines.
Around the house was harder. I bought him endless Lego and other building sets because his mind doesn't stop creating or designing. I searched for indoor home toys that engage body and mind, such as laser tag, dart practice, etc. I have a no gun rule so it was hard. His favorite was this odd toy I found on Amazon where you wrap this velcro around your head which has an attached ball on a string, and you punch the ball over and over.
Shabbos was very difficult. He refused to play board games because he thinks following rules are dumb. I made it my mission to find him new thick books to keep him entertained, but in the beginning he disliked reading and so I read to him. After a while, as long as the book had some kind of bad guys with guns, it would keep him busy for a few hours. We only get Jewish books so that limited us as well. The Yonah Sapir and Ruthie Pearlman books saved many of our Shabbosim.
I am very careful with what my kids see and hear but this type of child has a constant radar out for everything else. When he asks for brass knuckles or a combat knife for his birthday, saying no is not that simple. (I say no anyway)

amother

Quince

Tue, Sep 14 2021, 6:28 am

We have physical safety boundaries.

1. One person on the trampoline at a time.
2. We wear helmets
3. We hold hands when crossing a busy road (depending on age)
4. We don’t touch the stove or the treadmill without adult supervision/permission
4. We sit in car seats, boosters, or wear a seat belt (age dependent)
5. We don’t climb on specific things in the house (this is specific for my house. There are some things that can be dangerous)
6. We always let our parent know where we will be- don’t go somewhere after school etc. my boundary- I always let them know who will be picking them up
7. We don’t talk to strangers (this is detailed more)
8 we don’t touch people in ways they don’t like, or can hurt them.
9. We get to choose who touches us, and where

(Again all of these things are discussed more deeply)

We have social/emotional boundaries.

1. We get to have all kind of feelings. Every feeling is welcome in our house. We don’t use certain words To express our feelings. (I’ll help kids find other words to use).

2. We need to express our feelings in safe ways. I’m always there to help. (Again this a long conversation)

3. Everyone is responsible for their belongings. (Putting them always, etc) don’t use others stuff without permission etc..

4. We have spaces in our house where we can move our bodies and make as much noise as we want. We have other spaces that are for more quiet Activities. Etc...

We have spiritual boundaries.
1. No electronics on shabbos in this house.
2. We say brachos before and after food etc.
3. We begin our day with Davening. We end it with shema.
4. We dress in ways that show our neshama. (This means different things for different kids)

Etc.

I have many kids ranging from 2-13.

I have a lot more.

But everything is always communicated before to children and clearly.

We reassess frequently and make sure it’s actually working.

If someone isn’t respecting a boundary. I don’t threaten. I Remind them of the boundary and offer to help them uphold the boundary if they need help.

If it’s a huge boundary. I will step in and physically enforce boundary.

Remember, it’s dangerous to stack chairs to get your ball from the roof. Come down and let’s figure out a different way to get your ball. I will remove my 6 year old from the chair. I don’t just shout get off the chair!!!

If some of my kids can’t uphold boundaries on their own. Then I need to be there. Etc... So some of my kids can entertain themselves for hours safely and calmly and some can’t.

So I need to create structure for them.

bigsis144

Tue, Sep 14 2021, 7:23 am

salt wrote:

I don’t have an answer for how to get the kids to actually Live Up to the Expectation, other than changing the expectation to something like “DC11 and DC8 will stay in a room together peacefully for 10 minutes” or “DC11 and DC8 will stay in a room together peacefully with an adult checking in on them every 10 minutes”. Get super concrete.

But in stating it that boundary, I’m saying that the fighting is not part of my family blueprint. Really, if it was important enough, I wouldn’t be taking any phone calls and expecting kids to entertain themselves, just like I would never leave a 4 year old to supervise a 1 year old if I had an “emergency phone call”. I would need a different solution than “get their word, hope for the best and leave them unattended.”

(And that’s the hard part. The need for endless wells of parental time and energy. You can’t ever “lay down the law” then walk away. That would be “demanding obedience” rather than “enforcing a boundary”. The only solution is to (a) Be Present or (b) Remove the Expectation until the kids have the skill mastered.)

Last edited by bigsis144 on Tue, Sep 14 2021, 7:53 am; edited 2 times in total

amother

Forsythia

Tue, Sep 14 2021, 7:34 am

LovesHashem wrote:

Strong willed and argumentive can be nature.

But defiance and violence and hurting people usually speak to a deeper problem than just personality.

So you’re saying because my child is very short tempered, flies off the handle when things don’t go his way, needs reminders not to express his anger physically, I need to take him to the doctor for medicine rather than work on his behavior at home? Again, I’m just trying to understand. If I brought my child to our pediatrician and said I think my child is sick, he gives me such a hard time, I think the pediatrician would recommend a parenting class, not antibiotics.

Zehava

Tue, Sep 14 2021, 8:25 am

HakarasHatov wrote:

So What about cleaning up after playing, assuming parent doesn't have the resources to enforce it consistently. I assume that would fall under a different category than boundaries.

That would fall under collaboration. Once you switch your parenting model and gain your children’s trust you will utilize the connection you have to gain their cooperation. You will also figure out how to help them along, for younger kids that might mean cleaning up with them in the beginning, maybe putting on some music, etc.

behappy2

Tue, Sep 14 2021, 8:45 am

amother [ Melon ] wrote:

Yesterday my daughter hurt her friend and she was crying. I took the kid on my lap and held her. My daughter was very angry. I asked my daughter what happened over and over again gently until I could get a story from both and resolved it. I validate both of them, restated the rules. I didn't allow the child to be continuously hurt or my daughter to be vilified. I taught them how to communicate. I'm not saying this is how to do it out that this will work for you but generally this is what I do with my kids. I'm here for you and you don't need to fight is the message I give them. It doesn't mean they never fight.