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Do women dance the hakafot in your shul?
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Poll

Do women dance in your shul?
Yes  
 12%  [ 34 ]
No  
 87%  [ 241 ]
Total Votes : 275


shabbatiscoming




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Sep 23 2021, 4:14 pm
miami85 wrote:
When I was single and I didn't have a father, husband or children dancing doesn't mean that I just joined in. I still understood my role and I hoped and desired that someday I would have someone there. Still doesn't change the way my relationship is with Torah compared to those who sit 12 hours a day.

Do I feel left out on Shavuos when my husband goes to shul to learn all night and I'm "stuck home with the kids"--maybe a little bit, but also I remind myself, that why do men have this avoda in the first place because of the tikkun that the day of Matan Torah the men slept in or didn't have the proper reverence for the day so forevermore men stay up all night to make up for it.
Again, your view on judaism and what you believe your role in it is saddens me very much. Women can and do dance on simchat torah because it has nothing to do with the actual learning of the torah so much as it being our torah, the jewish peoples torah and that we have finished another cycle of learning it. How are women not a part of that?
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amother




Carnation
 

Post Thu, Sep 23 2021, 5:21 pm
miami85 wrote:
When I was single and I didn't have a father, husband or children dancing doesn't mean that I just joined in. I still understood my role and I hoped and desired that someday I would have someone there. Still doesn't change the way my relationship is with Torah compared to those who sit 12 hours a day.

Do I feel left out on Shavuos when my husband goes to shul to learn all night and I'm "stuck home with the kids"--maybe a little bit, but also I remind myself, that why do men have this avoda in the first place because of the tikkun that the day of Matan Torah the men slept in or didn't have the proper reverence for the day so forevermore men stay up all night to make up for it.

Yes and just like women do things as a tikkun to Chava’s sin. (Lighting Shabbos candles) And one of the repercussions of the sin is that their light got diminished and their connection to certain mitzvos is only through their husband.
Just like the moon, who is connected to Hashem’s light through the sun, and is smaller until moshiach comes.
This has been discussed Soooooo many times on this site.
And same for the Jews who are dependant on the other nations for certain things until moshiach comes.

When Moshiach comes the sin of Chava will be completely rectified, then the size of the moon (women, Jews) will be completely equal to the size of the sun (men, other nations now)
This is discussed extensively in kabbalah
(I know nothing about kabbalah. I just know what I read from gedolim who wrote this).

But even now, women are no less close to Hashem even if they are not in the glorified lime light and even if they’re main role is to connect to Hashem through supporting their husbands, it’s all one system anyway which is called bayis neeman byisroel.

It’s not about what the man wants or the woman wants, it’s about what Hashem wants, and the system He set up in how we should all serve Him here and earn our shared chelek in olam haba together.
Personally if I had to come back here I don’t know if I’d ask to come as a man, I happen to like my role as a woman. Lol just wanted to lighten the mood Wink
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Sep 23 2021, 5:28 pm
amother [ Carnation ] wrote:
Yes and just like women do things as a tikkun to Chava’s sin. And one of those things is that their light got diminished and their connection to certain mitzvos is only through their husband.
Just like the moon, who is connected to Hashem’s light through the sun, and is smaller until moshiach comes.
This has been discussed Soooooo many times on this site.
And same for the Jews who are dependant on the other nations for certain things until moshiach comes.

When Moshiach comes the sin of Chava will be completely rectified, then the size of the moon (women, Jews) will be completely equal to the size of the sun (men, other nations now)
This is discussed extensively in kabbalah
(I know nothing about kabbalah. I just know what I read from gedolim who wrote this).

But even now, women are no less close to Hashem even if they are not in the glorified lime light and even if they’re main role is to connect to Hashem through supporting their husbands, it’s all one system anyway which is called bayis neeman byisroel.
Its very interesting, I have nver heard of these ideas anywhere besides for on this site.
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amother




Carnation
 

Post Thu, Sep 23 2021, 5:32 pm
shabbatiscoming wrote:
Its very interesting, I have nver heard of these ideas anywhere besides for on this site.

If it interests you, you can read more about this topic in the book “The Moon’s Lost Light” by Devorah Fastag, it’s sold on Amazon.
It has endorsements from Rabbi Belsky and Rabbi Michel Twersky and others.
Also Rabbi Shimshon Pinkus discusses it in the book פניני רבי שמשון in the book that was published recently, chapter האשה בישראל.
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sequoia




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Sep 23 2021, 5:34 pm
amother [ Carnation ] wrote:
Yes and just like women do things as a tikkun to Chava’s sin. (Lighting Shabbos candles) And one of the repercussions of the sin is that their light got diminished and their connection to certain mitzvos is only through their husband.

When Moshiach comes the sin of Chava will be completely rectified, then the size of the moon (women, Jews) will be completely equal to the size of the sun (men, other nations now)
This is discussed extensively in kabbalah
(I know nothing about kabbalah. I just know what I read from gedolim who wrote this).

But even now, women are no less close to Hashem even if they are not in the glorified lime light and even if their main role is to connect to Hashem through supporting their husbands, it’s all one system anyway which is called bayis neeman byisroel.



Do you honestly believe this?

#notmyjudaism
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Sep 23 2021, 5:35 pm
amother [ Carnation ] wrote:
If it interests you, you can read more about this topic in the book “The Moon’s Lost Light” it’s sold on Amazon.
Also Rabbi Pinkus discusses it in the book פניני רבי שמשון in the chapter האשה בישראל.
Smile
When I said interesting I did not mean that I want to learn more about these ideas, but thank you.
I meant these ideas where so foreign to me and my bringing and my life now. I dont live vicariously through my husband's mitzvot. We do things for our own merit and that is what I have always learned and lived.
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amother




Carnation
 

Post Thu, Sep 23 2021, 5:36 pm
shabbatiscoming wrote:
Smile
When I said interesting I did not mean that I want to learn more about these ideas, but thank you.
I meant these ideas where so foreign to me and my bringing and my life now. I dont live vicariously through my husband's mitzvot. We do things for our own merit and that is what I have always learned and lived.

You misunderstood.
Of course we do things for our own merit.
Our connection to Hashem is direct.
But we are not obligated in many mitzvos.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Sep 23 2021, 5:39 pm
amother [ Carnation ] wrote:
You misunderstood.
Of course we do things for our own merit.
If I misunderstood please explain it to me.

What does "their connection to certain mitzvos is only through their husband" mean then?
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amother




Carnation
 

Post Thu, Sep 23 2021, 5:40 pm
sequoia wrote:
Do you honestly believe this ****?

#notmyjudaism

Yes, and as I said it has endorsements from
Rabbi Yisroel Belsky
Rabbi Michel Twersky
Rabbi Meyer Twersky
Gila Manolson
Rabbi Zev Leff

To each their own, to me women dancing with a Torah and standing in line with their sticky handed toddlers to get a wannabee aliya without a bracha is a joke #notmyjudaism.
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amother




Pansy
 

Post Thu, Sep 23 2021, 5:45 pm
amother [ Carnation ] wrote:
Yes, and as I said it has endorsements from
Rabbi Yisroel Belsky
Rabbi Michel Twersky
Rabbi Meyer Twersky
Gila Manolson
Rabbi Zev Leff

To each their own, to me women dancing with a Torah and standing in line with their sticky handed toddlers to get an aliya without a bracha is #notmyjudaism

I tried reading the book once and it just didn't speak to me no matter who endorsed it.
And where does it leave someone like Sarah Schnierer who spent most of her life with no husband, and had no sons. Nobody will ever get me to believe she had a less than connection to Torah than a man.
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sequoia




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Sep 23 2021, 5:48 pm
amother [ Carnation ] wrote:
standing in line with their sticky handed toddlers to get a wannabee aliya without a bracha is a joke #notmyjudaism.


Some of us have no children and never will.

I live in Europe, where women participating in shul in any way is completely unheard of.
But there’s nothing wrong with it.
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amother




Carnation
 

Post Thu, Sep 23 2021, 5:49 pm
shabbatiscoming wrote:
If I misunderstood please explain it to me.

What does "their connection to certain mitzvos is only through their husband" mean then?

Ok I’ll try, I’m not very learned but I’ll try:

For example, women are not obligated to have children. But their husbands are. They are the ezer knegdo (husband cant fulfill that mitzva without them) but they do get rewarded for having children.
Same with husbands learning.
Same with tzizit and tefillin. They aren’t obligated to wear them but they share the husband’s rewards just the same because intimately they’re one unit.
Are you familiar with the story of Rabi Chanina Ben dosa? He and his wife were very poor and she cried and a golden table leg came down to help them with their parnassa but then he showed his wife that their table in heaven was missing a leg so she didn’t wsnt it anymore and they davened that it should be taken back (and it was).
My point is that HE learned. She didn’t, at least not as much as him. She was ‘just’ his wife. Yet still They share the same table in heaven. (Whatever “table” means, I don’t know, but they share it).
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amother




Carnation
 

Post Thu, Sep 23 2021, 5:51 pm
amother [ Pansy ] wrote:
I tried reading the book once and it just didn't speak to me no matter who endorsed it.
And where does it leave someone like Sarah Schnierer who spent most of her life with no husband, and had no sons. Nobody will ever get me to believe she had a less than connection to Torah than a man.

It actually says
כל המלמד בן חברו תורה מעלה עליו הכתוב כאילו ילדו
That’s probably why on her matzaiva it says under her name “Aim B’Yisroel” - A mother in Klal Yisroel.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Sep 23 2021, 5:53 pm
amother [ Carnation ] wrote:
Yes, and as I said it has endorsements from
Rabbi Yisroel Belsky
Rabbi Michel Twersky
Rabbi Meyer Twersky
Gila Manolson
Rabbi Zev Leff

To each their own, to me women dancing with a Torah and standing in line with their sticky handed toddlers to get a wannabee aliya without a bracha is a joke #notmyjudaism.
Where did you go from women dancing on simchat torah to women standing in line for an aliyah? Not the same thing and not what im talking about.
And again, this was not about dancing with the torah. This was just about women dancing.
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amother




Pansy
 

Post Thu, Sep 23 2021, 6:02 pm
amother [ Carnation ] wrote:
It actually says
כל המלמד בן חברו תורה מעלה עליו הכתוב כאילו ילדו
That’s probably why on her matzaiva it says under her name “Aim B’Yisroel” - A mother in Klal Yisroel.

That still doesn't speak to the point of women connecting to Torah through men.
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simcha2




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Sep 23 2021, 6:08 pm
amother [ Carnation ] wrote:
Ok I’ll try, I’m not very learned but I’ll try:

For example, women are not obligated to have children. But their husbands are. They are the ever knegdo (husband cant fulfill that mitzva without them) but they do get rewarded for having children.
Same with husbands learning.
Same with tzizit and tefillin. They aren’t obligated to wear them but they share the husband’s rewards just the same because intimately they’re one unit.
Are you familiar with the story of Rabi Chanina Ben dosa? He and his wife were very poor and she cried and a golden table leg came down to help them with their parnassa but then he showed his wife that their table in heaven was missing a leg so should didn’t wsnt it anymore and they davened that it should be taken back (and it was).
My point is that HE learned. She didn’t, at least not as much as him. She was ‘just’ his wife. Yet still They share the same table in heaven. (Whatever “table” means, I don’t know, but they share it).


You do realize that there is no mitzvah to dance with the Torah on Simchat Torah, right?

It is purely a way of expressing our love and joy in our chelek. And women and men have equal chelek in the Torah.

So if the reason was of of tznius, I could almost understand (but then just put up a mechitza like you do at a wedding), but because we have less of a connection to Torah? That I don't understand.
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tp3




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Sep 23 2021, 6:14 pm
Women don't need to physically dance in order to celebrate.
If they want to... there are women who enjoy dancing and will at any time if given the opportunity. Not I.
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amother




Oldlace
 

Post Thu, Sep 23 2021, 6:14 pm
shabbatiscoming wrote:
Smile
When I said interesting I did not mean that I want to learn more about these ideas, but thank you.
I meant these ideas where so foreign to me and my bringing and my life now. I dont live vicariously through my husband's mitzvot. We do things for our own merit and that is what I have always learned and lived.


Nobody is suggesting you or any other woman live vicariously through someone else's mitzvot. It's not a question of being deprived and gaining enjoyment vicariously, like me watching dd with an ice cream cone on a hot day.
Judaism has very precise roles for every creature and type of creature. Hashem is the one who created all those creatures and He decides what role they play. When the Kohen Gadol performed the avoda on Yom Kippur, the people didn't gain vicarious enjoyment. They benefited from him doing what only he could do. When kohanim brought korbanot, no man or woman from a different shevet could say they'd rather put their own sheep or dove on the mizbeach. You're right we do things for our own merit, but in a marriage we each do different things and we both benefit from what's done. I benefit from dh's kiddush and he benefits from my neirot. It's more like filing a joint tax return than like living vicariously.
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amother




Carnation
 

Post Thu, Sep 23 2021, 6:54 pm
amother [ Oldlace ] wrote:
Nobody is suggesting you or any other woman live vicariously through someone else's mitzvot. It's not a question of being deprived and gaining enjoyment vicariously, like me watching dd with an ice cream cone on a hot day.
Judaism has very precise roles for every creature and type of creature. Hashem is the one who created all those creatures and He decides what role they play. When the Kohen Gadol performed the avoda on Yom Kippur, the people didn't gain vicarious enjoyment. They benefited from him doing what only he could do. When kohanim brought korbanot, no man or woman from a different shevet could say they'd rather put their own sheep or dove on the mizbeach. You're right we do things for our own merit, but in a marriage we each do different things and we both benefit from what's done. I benefit from dh's kiddush and he benefits from my neirot. It's more like filing a joint tax return than like living vicariously.

Exactly. Thank you for being able to explain it much better than me, and so beautifully.
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simcha2




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Sep 23 2021, 7:28 pm
amother [ Oldlace ] wrote:
Nobody is suggesting you or any other woman live vicariously through someone else's mitzvot. It's not a question of being deprived and gaining enjoyment vicariously, like me watching dd with an ice cream cone on a hot day.
Judaism has very precise roles for every creature and type of creature. Hashem is the one who created all those creatures and He decides what role they play. When the Kohen Gadol performed the avoda on Yom Kippur, the people didn't gain vicarious enjoyment. They benefited from him doing what only he could do. When kohanim brought korbanot, no man or woman from a different shevet could say they'd rather put their own sheep or dove on the mizbeach. You're right we do things for our own merit, but in a marriage we each do different things and we both benefit from what's done. I benefit from dh's kiddush and he benefits from my neirot. It's more like filing a joint tax return than like living vicariously.


What has marriage got to do with men and women dancing hakafot? By that logic girls and single women should dance.

In a marriage there are different roles, I just don't see how it is relevant here.
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