Have attitudes towards non vaxxers changed since 2018?

amother

Oatmeal

Fri, Oct 08 2021, 1:59 am

Historically speaking, pandemics cause mass distrust in the medical establishment, because it exposes the weak points of the system. That doesn't mean the medical system is untrustworthy; it just means people's anxiety and confusion causes social upheaval and changes in attitudes among the masses.

So I was not surprised by the spread of anti-vax attitude in general, but I'm somewhat taken aback by how deeply it has gripped the frum community.

Because, no offense, we are not less "sheepish" than any other group of people in the world; some would argue quite the opposite in certain respects. And there seems to be a correlation between religious belief and anti-vaccine attitude.

So in summary, my attitude towards "regular" antivaxxers has not changed.

southernbubby

Fri, Oct 08 2021, 8:37 am

amother [ Oatmeal ] wrote:

I saw a Newsweek article about this today. The medical establishment has turned the doctor-patient relationship into a purely profit business and it's no longer about the best interest of the patient, nor is medicine any longer an "art". Doctors are limited in how they can treat and prescribe and they can't start getting creative. Small town doctors once knew the whole family and knew what genetic conditions everyone had and saw the homes that they lived in.
Now, most medical practices are bought by the industry and in some small towns, the friendly little hospitals are forced to close.
So if someone comes along and is more reassuring than the random nurse, technician, or pharmacist who is mass vaccinating in grocery stores and drive ups, that person will win over someone who would truly rather use snake oil if dispensed by someone who really seems to care. (I am not calling off label medications snake oil).

amother

Fri, Oct 08 2021, 9:01 am

amother [ Oatmeal ] wrote:

I hear this. I personally don’t believe the distrust is unwarranted, though I do think some of the reasons people give are a little superficial and weak. But I hear your opinion. You think it’s just an emotional response, not rigorous or thought through.

amother

Fri, Oct 08 2021, 9:03 am

southernbubby wrote:

Sure, let make people who don’t trust huge profitable medical industrial complex conglomerates seem like idiots who fall for snake oil charmers because they speak sweetly and actually seem to care about them. Instead of admitting that the industry needs an overhaul. And that there are still some physicians out there who actually care about health and healing rather than their bottom line, and them not getting sued.

amother

Magenta

Fri, Oct 08 2021, 9:06 am

southernbubby wrote:

About 10,000 doctors gathered recently in support of ivermectin instead of vaccines so I don't think that they are all of one mind.

Where? Do you have a link to the news story?

amother

Oatmeal

Fri, Oct 08 2021, 10:00 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Depends who, but the mass reaction is not one triggered by rigorous research, but good persuasive techniques aimed at people emotionally primed to be susceptible to it.

And to be clear, I do think the medical system needs to be fixed on many levels.

southernbubby

Fri, Oct 08 2021, 10:01 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

We all believe something because of our prior experience. Years ago, the frum community fell for a series of multi level marketing strategies that usually sold health related products. These people would totally believe in a product, such as blue-green algae, and proclaim it to be the cure for everything from ADHD to cancer and this would last until a new MLM scam came along. The usual narrative was that the medical establishment only made money if they made and kept people sick and vaccines were designed to induce illness for years to come so that big pharma could continue to reap profit but the MLM companies had to compete differently because they were a threat to big pharma if people knew the "truth".
So yes, there was some snake oil being pedalled and people fell for scam after scam.

southernbubby

Fri, Oct 08 2021, 10:03 am

amother [ Magenta ] wrote:

Where? Do you have a link to the news story?

I can try to find it but it had to do with Dr Robert Malone.

southernbubby

Fri, Oct 08 2021, 10:09 am

It was apparently a virtual meeting:

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Ivermectin - Truth and Totalitarianism
Ivermectin - Truth and Totalitarianism
Vaccines, Ivermectin and the Physicians' Rome Declaration
by Justus R. Hope MD Oct 6, 2021 Updated 22 hrs ago 0
Einstein
Standing for Ethics with Science

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Dr. Robert Malone, of Salk Institute fame, invented the mRNA vaccine platform technology, and he is now among the most vocal critics of the vaccine mandates.

Albert Einstein criticized governments for misusing his gift of E=MC2, the Theory of Relativity, and making the atomic bomb. Einstein carried this guilt for the rest of his life.

In a letter to President Roosevelt, he wrote, "Had I known that the Germans would not succeed in producing an atomic bomb," he said, "I would have never lifted a finger."

Likewise, Kary Mullis, the inventor of PCR technology, lamented that it was not designed as a diagnostic tool and should not be used for biological testing. Nevertheless, it is widely used in its abominated form to diagnose cases of COVID that do not exist. However, most doctors, including Anthony Fauci, acknowledge that when pressed at greater than 25 to 30 cycles, the PCR suffers from upwards of a 90+% false positivity rate.

More and more examples exist, from Alfred Nobel and his dynamite invention to Kamran Loghman, a chief developer of pepper spray. But, unfortunately, their new technology was adulterated into something immoral, unethical, or destructive.

Loghman was horrified when his pepper spray was used callously and aggressively by police against UC Davis demonstrators.

“I have never seen such an inappropriate and improper use of chemical agents."

https://www.theatlantic.com/te.....9044/

Today, genetic vaccines and even drugs like Molnupiravir that create catastrophic mutations - only in viruses, of course - represent the brink of science and perhaps the brink of humanity.

Will the human race ultimately use these methods to destroy itself in its quest for pure science and technology?

Rather than wait and find out, Dr. Malone and other ethical physicians convened the Rome International COVID Summit. It garnered more than one million logins from around the world and resulted in the release of the Rome Physician's Declaration.

https://gnews.org/1551513/

This Declaration has attracted more than 10,700 signatures from physicians worldwide as of yesterday as scientists around the world call for a halt to the reckless use of Dr. Malone's invention - mRNA platform technology - and a renewed attention to Human Rights.

https://www.thedesertreview.co......html

Albert Einstein once said, “It is the responsibility of every human being to aspire to do something worthwhile, to make this world a better place than the one he or she found.”

Einstein and Nobel would be proud of Dr. Robert Malone's Declaration, and perhaps humanity may live another day - if enough people awaken - before it is too late.

Please ask your doctor to sign the Rome Declaration today.

https://doctorsandscientistsdeclaration.org/

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keym

Fri, Oct 08 2021, 10:31 am

gold21 wrote:

For me, it's complicated.

People who are anti-covid-vaxx who say things like "I trust my immune system" and "The human body was created to fight off viruses", "Covid is just the flu", "Nobody died of covid, they died of neglect" come across as privileged and insensitive to others. They insist that covid is no big deal and that everyone has the capacity to fight it off easily. Just eat healthy and exercise. It's no biggie. Shrug.

The cavalier attitude doesn't sit well with me.

Instead, I relate to anti-covid-vaxx people who say things like "I'm concerned about the risks of this vaccine", "I am not comfortable with the new technology being used in these vaccines", "I don't trust the agencies that are regulating the vaccine", etc, who are coming from a place of concern and hesitation about the vaccine. They acknowledge that covid is real and carries some risks, but are also concerned about risks of the vaccine.

So, I would apply the same rule to "regular" anti-vaxxers. I am definitely now more understanding of those who have specific concerns about the vaccines, either specifically relating to their children, or general safety concern about vaccines. I am definitely more understanding of those who are distrustful of the CDC, the FDA, and Big Pharma. So in that way, yes, my views have changed.

However, those who insist that
measles/polio/insert-name-of-virus is no big deal and eating healthy is the best defense, nobody really died of these viruses anyway, everyone can just trust their immune systems to do its thing, and besides, viruses are good for you- I feel the same way about this as I did before. So in that way, my views haven't changed.

Yes. You expressed it well.
Also to add, I generally don't care who does and doesn't vaccinate their kids. I do care about those who don't keep their kids home when sick or exposed to a "vaccine-preventable" disease.
Those mothers who knew their child was exposed to measles, yet still sent them to school and to play because "you're vaccinated, why are you scared of my kid".
I feel the same way now about those who knowingly are exposed to COVID and go out and around.
Don't get the vaccine but be responsible and stop minimizing the disease
Whether it's measles or pertussis or Corona.

amother

Fri, Oct 08 2021, 10:35 am

southernbubby wrote:

Its sad that all non vaxxers get lumped in the same category.

southernbubby

Fri, Oct 08 2021, 10:44 am

I would also say that before the 2020 election, we traveled through rural Pennsylvania. Two things stuck out; the countryside was plastered in Trump signs and many of the medical facilities that we passed were chiropractic offices.
So I wondered why rural people were more likely to visit the chiropractor than urban dwellers, if indeed they are. The only answer that I could find was that sometimes, chiropractors were the only doctors willing to set up practice in rural areas and it was lucrative because of lack of competition by MDs. Many chiropractors are anti-vax and few of them actually vaccinate people.
This type of health care appealed to people who wanted the type of personal care that was enjoyed by previous generations of rural dwellers and they liked the medically conservative approach because it mirrored their approach to life in general.
This may be a factor in why many people in rural areas don't trust the vaccine.

southernbubby

Fri, Oct 08 2021, 10:48 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Its sad that all non vaxxers get lumped in the same category.

Most of us judge based on our experience rather than on the possibility that antivaxers may be more knowledgeable than we are. Does it make sense to you to try to convince a cancer patient to take blue-green algae instead of cancer medication? This is what was happening but BH she didn't listen to them and survived.

amother

Fri, Oct 08 2021, 10:49 am

southernbubby wrote:

Eh. I’m not sure this is a scientific observation. You notice chiropractors in rural areas because they hang shingles off main roads. Unlike in big cities where they are inside posh high rise building and you wouldn’t know by passing by.

amother

Poppy

Fri, Oct 08 2021, 10:52 am

What also has made me question stuff. My previous babies I always vaccinated but late doctor was on board and late meaning 9 months I never had to lump together vaccines and by the age of 2 my kid was up to date. Well with my current baby my doctor was adamant she won’t do that and if she thinks my baby can get vaccines she will give it. I told her look at my previous kids I gave every vaccine and never had to rush anything, I come for my well visits religiously. She said well this is how it’s now. I was very upset with the attitude I am seeing a different doctor in the practice that was like only 9 months you want that’s fine.

amother

Fri, Oct 08 2021, 10:54 am

southernbubby wrote:

Then, yes. They looked like a bunch of kooks and nobody had any reason to think otherwise. But this is exactly why I’m asking if things changed. Has anyone’s covid experience led them to think that maybe non vaxxers knew something back then that they didn’t? Or at the very least, feel bad for having disparaged them so much for arriving at a different conclusion than them regarding a medical issue. I’m not looking to change anyone’s mind. Just curious if anyone’s admitted this to themselves.
One thing I see, frum schools in NY and NJ bending over backwards to accommodate students and staff wishes re vaccines, and even last year keeping schools open etc. Very very unlike during measles, where even sympathetic school administrators acted like their hands were tied. Not saying I blame them, but when it’s affecting them, and they get, they are all sure they’re going to find a way.

amother

Pumpkin

Fri, Oct 08 2021, 11:10 am

A lot of it is political
And the government response and now overreach was unprecedented
Never happened with something like measles
Only corona
A perfect storm
Which requires different and evolving responses and proactive measures

southernbubby

Fri, Oct 08 2021, 11:37 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Then, yes. They looked like a bunch of kooks and nobody had any reason to think otherwise. But this is exactly why I’m asking if things changed. Has anyone’s covid experience led them to think that maybe non vaxxers knew something back then that they didn’t? I’m not looking to change anyone’s mind. Just curious if anyone’s admitted this to themselves.
One thing I see, frum schools in NY and NJ bending over backwards to accommodate students and staff wishes re vaccines, and even last year keeping schools open etc. Very very unlike during measles, where even sympathetic school administrators acted like their hands were tied. Not saying I blame them, but when it’s affecting them, and they get, they are all sure they’re going to find a way.

It really depends on what antivaxers determine to be the solution or how much of their MO is based on very disputable nonsense such as saying that most Covid positive people were killed by hospitals for profit because there is no proof of that but I see people on here who promote it as fact.

amother

Fri, Oct 08 2021, 11:40 am

amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:

There was even more government overreach during measles than during corona. It just didn’t affect as many people so you only knew If it affected you.

amother

Catmint

Fri, Oct 08 2021, 1:35 pm

southernbubby wrote:

your tone is extremly divisive.
It would be better to acknowledge things from a place of objectivity and unity.
Calling peoples claims "disputable nonsense" does not mean much. If you want to address the issue of the hospitals recieving funding for certain measures you can do so.