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amother
Bluebell
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 Fri, Oct 08 2021, 9:28 am
| nchr wrote: | Your husband should be ashamed of himself to say such a thing. It's a holy thing done by many tzadikim. Also, a mitzvah tantz is about Hashem. It's about soidos thst are very high and holy and hidden. It's not as much about the couple at all. It happens to be it happens at a chasuna (maybe because it's like Hashem connecting to Yidden etc I don't know) but it is 100% about Hashem, the yichud of Hashem, the coming of moshiach and higher kavunes that we cannot understand. Some people have a minhag to spell out Hashems name when dancing and there are other minhagim.
If your husband can only think with nivel of a chussen touching the hands of a kallah in a time when he is supposed to be thinking about the oneness and greatness of Hashem, he should work on himself.
Also, I thought the halucha is the chussen must physically take the kallah into the yichud room. How do litvish do this after chuppa if he does not touch her hand? |
My apologies, but this kind of explanation gets applied to anything that we ask questions of and can't be satisfactorily answered. A "very holy and hidden" response is generated to try to shut the other party up.
A mitzvah tanz is very much about the couple, it's true design is to be mesameach chosson v'kallah. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with trying to understand the reasoning for it. We can make anything and everything out to be about Hashem, the coming of Moshiach and higher Kavunes, and yes we are able to understand most of it. So it's perfectly ok to try to understand why we do a particular something
Such thoughts about the yichud of Hashem, connecting to Hashem all came after the fact. It is individual to people and/or to groups, just like the thoughts that people have that aren't supportive of it. Just like people come up with high holy reasons in support of it, other people come up with high holy reasons that don't support it. Both ways are 100% acceptable. If one wants people to support their perspectives, they must afford respect for other people's perspective too. Even when they are in direct conflict with yours.
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amother
Ginger
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Fri, Oct 08 2021, 9:30 am
| amother [ Bluebell ] wrote: | My apologies, but this kind of explanation gets applied to anything that we ask questions of and can't be satisfactorily answered. A "very holy and hidden" response is generated to try to shut the other party up.
A mitzvah tanz is very much about the couple, it's true design is to be mesameach chosson v'kallah. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with trying to understand the reasoning for it. We can make anything and everything out to be about Hashem, the coming of Moshiach and higher Kavunes, and yes we are able to understand most of it. So it's perfectly ok to try to understand why we do a particular something
Such thoughts about the yichud of Hashem, connecting to Hashem all came after the fact. It is individual to people and/or to groups, just like the thoughts that people have that aren't supportive of it. Just like people come up with high holy reasons in support of it, other people come up with high holy reasons that don't support it. Both ways are 100% acceptable. If one wants people to support their perspectives, they must afford respect for other people's perspective too. Even when they are in direct conflict with yours. |
Actually, NCHR is right. There are kabalah sources for mitzvah tantz.
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amother
Daffodil
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Fri, Oct 08 2021, 9:30 am
| amother [ Ginger ] wrote: | It's not derech chibbah. (Of course there are exceptions to the rule, but they're not typical chassidish couples and they anyways touch in public in general.) Who are you to decide that husbands and wives don't hold hands if it's not derech chiba? Everyone has their minhagim.
Did you hold hands with your husband when you went in to dancing? |
Of course we didn't hold hands when we went into dancing!!! Only place I've seen it is chassidish lite weddings.
Who am I to decide? Well, do you currently hold hands with your husband when walking down the street? (Even if it's not derech chiba?) I'm pretty sure you dont. How is this different?
Also, even if some people are doing things wrong, two wrongs don't make a right. That's not a valid argument.
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amother
Ginger
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Fri, Oct 08 2021, 9:32 am
| amother [ Daffodil ] wrote: | Of course we didn't hold hands when we went into dancing!!! Only place I've seen it is chassidish lite weddings.
Who am I to decide? Well, do you currently hold hands with your husband when walking down the street? (Even if it's not derech chiba?) I'm pretty sure you dont. How is this different? |
Because mitzvah tantz is a serious situation (only immediate family is there) and cannot be compared to holding hands on the street. It's not the same type of holding hands.
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amother
Bluebell
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Fri, Oct 08 2021, 9:32 am
| amother [ Ginger ] wrote: | | Actually, NCHR is right. There are kabalah sources for mitzvah tantz. |
There are kabalah sources for everything. That doesn't mean that the questions can't be answered with regular explanations as well.
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amother
Daffodil
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Fri, Oct 08 2021, 9:33 am
| amother [ Ginger ] wrote: | | Interesting. Every yeshivish wedding I've been to, the couple holds hands coming in for dancing. My FIL extended family is yeshivish. My moms extended family is MO. I've never seen a couple not holding hands coming in to dancing. |
Maybe it's your family thing. I've never seen it.
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amother
Ginger
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Fri, Oct 08 2021, 9:33 am
| amother [ Jasmine ] wrote: | | I will add that my family who does do mitzva tantz and sees no tznius problem with it would never tolerate the kallah coming into the men’s side for keitzad merakdim. |
Exactly. Everyone has their customs.
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amother
Daffodil
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Fri, Oct 08 2021, 9:33 am
| amother [ Jasmine ] wrote: | | I will add that my family who does do mitzva tantz and sees no tznius problem with it would never tolerate the kallah coming into the men’s side for keitzad merakdim. |
Yes, but the source for THAT is clearly in the gemara.
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amother
Ginger
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Fri, Oct 08 2021, 9:34 am
| amother [ Daffodil ] wrote: | | Maybe it's your family thing. I've never seen it. |
I actually recall now that I did see by some weddings the couple not holding hands but they were dancing and jumping by the dancing introduction.
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amother
Holly
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Fri, Oct 08 2021, 9:37 am
| amother [ Bluebell ] wrote: | | There are kabalah sources for everything. That doesn't mean that the questions can't be answered with regular explanations as well. |
I once discussed this with a rebbetzin and dayan separately before a wedding that may have had a chuppas nidda and was given a similar explanation to what NCHR is saying.
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amother
Jasmine
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Fri, Oct 08 2021, 9:37 am
| PinkFridge wrote: | Is this halacha or minhag?
One can also say we should thinking about the oneness of Hashem 24/7.
How can you blame someone for not having the proper kavanos if this is outside their frame of reference? Maybe people should print a flyer for those who aren't familiar with the minhag. |
Lol. They seem to have enough of a frame of reference to say it’s assur.
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amother
Ginger
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Fri, Oct 08 2021, 9:37 am
| amother [ Daffodil ] wrote: | | Yes, but the source for THAT is clearly in the gemara. |
There's a source for the chasson dancing for the kallah. There's no source for the kallah and women to go in to the mens section. (And sometimes jump along.) I've also seen the chasson come in to the women's section to dance with the kallah. Every family/community has their norms.
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amother
Honeysuckle
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Fri, Oct 08 2021, 9:39 am
Most yeshivish and "right wing YU" couples do not hold hands in public at their wedding. They certainly do not hold hands when coming into dancing.
The rabbanim do not think it's appropriate and it's also to allow a chupas niddah not to be so obvious.
Obviously in circles where the husband and wife will walk down the street holding hands they will be the ones holding hands and jumping up and down together before the dancing. And in some circles it became more accepted due to the chassidish practice.
But it is definitely not the norm in classic Yeshiva circles.( And if it's seeping in, it's newer)
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amother
Daffodil
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Fri, Oct 08 2021, 9:39 am
| amother [ Ginger ] wrote: | | There's a source for the chasson dancing for the kallah. There's no source for the kallah and women to go in to the mens section. (And sometimes jump along.) I've also seen the chasson come in to the women's section to dance with the kallah. Every family/community has their norms. |
There is a absolutely no issur for women to go into the men's section. None at all. (You only need a mechitzah if the women are dancing). So no need for a source for something which is absolutely halachically fine.
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amother
Sienna
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Fri, Oct 08 2021, 9:42 am
| amother [ Ginger ] wrote: | | The couple is NOT holding hands in a chibbah type of way. They're barely touching/moving and it's very serious. |
The chassan says eishes chayil. At least they do in our families. They don’t dance, they maybe move side to side a few centimeters.
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amother
Ginger
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Fri, Oct 08 2021, 9:44 am
| amother [ Daffodil ] wrote: | | There is a absolutely no issur for women to go into the men's section. None at all. (You only need a mechitzah if the women are dancing). So no need for a source for something which is absolutely halachically fine. |
Many times the women end up shaking or dancing along to the music.
In chassidish circles, women going in to the mens section would be a big no no.
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gonewiththewind1
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Fri, Oct 08 2021, 9:46 am
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amother
Bluebell
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Fri, Oct 08 2021, 9:46 am
| amother [ Daffodil ] wrote: | | There is a absolutely no issur for women to go into the men's section. None at all. (You only need a mechitzah if the women are dancing). So no need for a source for something which is absolutely halachically fine. |
Agree 100%. But then why does this very same group insist on mechitzahs absolutely everywhere else. During the reception, the meal - and all of life. It is literally the only place that a group of women walk directly into the men's section.
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Genius
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Fri, Oct 08 2021, 9:47 am
| amother [ Daffodil ] wrote: | Anyone can make a mistake, even big people.
And as you know, the misnagdim felt that all Chassidus is wrong. |
If the entire idea of chassidus is wrong why are you trying to understand tiny little details?
Btw this isn’t the only thing that is assur by the books that we do because our rebbes tell us that this is what should be done. (Baal Shem Tov and his talmidim) They believed that these practices are better for the big picture.
You shouldn’t do these things, but there is no reason to tell us it’s assur. For us it isn’t.
Last edited by Genius on Fri, Oct 08 2021, 9:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Ginger
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Fri, Oct 08 2021, 9:48 am
| amother [ Honeysuckle ] wrote: | Most yeshivish and "right wing YU" couples do not hold hands in public at their wedding. They certainly do not hold hands when coming into dancing.
The rabbanim do not think it's appropriate and it's also to allow a chupas niddah not to be so obvious.
Obviously in circles where the husband and wife will walk down the street holding hands they will be the ones holding hands and jumping up and down together before the dancing. And in some circles it became more accepted due to the chassidish practice.
But it is definitely not the norm in classic Yeshiva circles.( And if it's seeping in, it's newer) |
Does the chasson put the ring on the kallahs finger?
Every community has their norms and standards. What's right for one is wrong for the other. The way others dress, is assur in chassidish circles. The way we do mitzvah tantz, is assur for others. We need to respect each other's customs and minhagim even if we don't understand it.
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