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-> Children's Health
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amother
OP
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 Mon, Oct 11 2021, 10:06 am
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I'm just wondering, why does everyone jump to Pandas as soon as there is any behavioral concern? My son has had differences noticeable within the first month after birth and has been diagnosed mild ASD and ADHD (he's now 8). When posters list similar symptoms, everyone starts saying to test for pandas. Is no one allowed to have ASD ADHD or anxiety anymore? Or another difference? Not every single behavior concern is pandas.
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elmommy
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Mon, Oct 11 2021, 10:08 am
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I'm with you 100%. I'm not going to deny it might be a real thing but I would imagine youre thinking about that other post that just got hijacked with PANDAS when stuttering is normal for 3 yo and the kid can literally have a virus or something else very basic I have witnessed more than once.
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momsrus
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Mon, Oct 11 2021, 10:10 am
| elmommy wrote: | | I'm with you 100%. I'm not going to deny it might be a real thing but I would imagine youre thinking about that other post that just got hijacked with PANDAS when stuttering is normal for 3 yo and the kid can literally have a virus or something else very basic I have witnessed more than once. |
There's stuttering and there's stuttering with tics.
one is normal, the other is not
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amother
Jean
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Mon, Oct 11 2021, 10:11 am
| momsrus wrote: | There's stuttering and there's stuttering with tics.
one is normal, the other is not | And then there is stuttering with tics and aggression and emotional lability and sleep regression and and and. Reads exactly like the list of diagnostic criteria.
And no one else will tell her this. Everyone else will say a phase, parenting, therapy, OT, and mom and kid will go through life like this. It’s a parents right to know that this exists.
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amother
Royalblue
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Mon, Oct 11 2021, 10:13 am
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It seems like PANDAS is popular here because people would rather that than an ASD or ADHD diagnosis.
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amother
Jean
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Mon, Oct 11 2021, 10:14 am
| amother [ Royalblue ] wrote: | | It seems like PANDAS is popular here because people would rather that than an ASD or ADHD diagnosis. | People would rather have the truth. Asd and adhd are a grouping of symptoms. They are not a cause.
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amother
Burgundy
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Mon, Oct 11 2021, 10:16 am
I always wonder this too.
I think some people would rather treat for a medical issue than psychological issue.
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amother
Jean
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Mon, Oct 11 2021, 10:20 am
| amother [ Burgundy ] wrote: | I always wonder this too.
I think some people would rather treat for a medical issue than psychological issue. | This is a ridiculous accusation. People want what’s best for their kids. And more research comes out every day showing that psychological issues ARE largely medical issues.
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amother
Plum
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Mon, Oct 11 2021, 10:20 am
| amother [ Burgundy ] wrote: | I always wonder this too.
I think some people would rather treat for a medical issue than psychological issue. |
It's not enough to treat for phycological symptoms. Suddenly overnight a sweet easygoing kid needs OT, speech therapy, a neurologist and therapy for anxiety and they're not related? Interesting.
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elmommy
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Mon, Oct 11 2021, 10:23 am
I am not making any accusations. I am really wondering why a child wouldn't go to their regular pediatrician and take blood and swab for virus's before diagnosing every child with this.
When my child's behavior was off I brought her to the pediatrician. When everything else was clear the dr had enough sechel to do a basic swab and bam she had two virus's.
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amother
Burgundy
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Mon, Oct 11 2021, 10:24 am
| amother [ Jean ] wrote: | | This is a ridiculous accusation. People want what’s best for their kids. And more research comes out every day showing that psychological issues ARE largely medical issues. |
I’m not accusing anyone of anything. Some kids definitely have pandas, I’m sure. But not every kid with behavioral issues.
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amother
Eggshell
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Mon, Oct 11 2021, 10:25 am
| amother [ Plum ] wrote: | | It's not enough to treat for phycological symptoms. Suddenly overnight a sweet easygoing kid needs OT, speech therapy, a neurologist and therapy for anxiety and they're not related? Interesting. |
The problem is the pushing PANDAS etc when it's NOT overnight.
My 5 year old is difficult. Doesn't sleep well. Gets angry quickly and intensely.
But he was always like this. He was an intense 2 week old and 2 month old and 2 year old.
I actually don't think he has enough markers for ASD or ADHD.
But when I ask for advice, people throw PANDAS at me.
But he never changed. He was always intense. I need to learn and he needs to learn how to live with that intensity and turn it into a propellant that will help him, rather than wasting his entire childhood and all my money chasing treatments and medicines and supplements to try to change his nature.
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amother
Jean
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Mon, Oct 11 2021, 10:27 am
| elmommy wrote: | I am not making any accusations. I am really wondering why a child wouldn't go to their regular pediatrician and take blood and swab for virus's before diagnosing every child with this.
When my child's behavior was off I brought her to the pediatrician. When everything else was clear the dr had enough sechel to do a basic swab and bam she had two virus's. | What that OP was describing were not typical sick symptoms at all. And they were going on for longer than viruses take to run their course. If your child acts like that with respiratory viruses (tics, stutter, aggression, meltdowns, clingy, withdrawn, anxious, irrational), that is literally the definition of pans.
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elmommy
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Mon, Oct 11 2021, 10:33 am
| amother [ Jean ] wrote: | | What that OP was describing were not typical sick symptoms at all. And they were going on for longer than viruses take to run their course. If your child acts like that with respiratory viruses (tics, stutter, aggression, meltdowns, clingy, withdrawn, anxious, irrational), that is literally the definition of pans. |
I am going to strongly disagree. My child happens to respond horribly to virus's and it takes a few weeks to go through her system. I very much trust my pediatrician and this is most def not PANDAS or whatever you're calling it.
I also work with a child who suddenly had a change of behavior so the mother (a very good one) brought her to pediatrician and did bloodwork. Came back with bacterial infection.
I am not denying PANDAS is real cuz I'm not in the mood for a fight, but a disproportionate number of people on this site are told to check for PANDAS before checking out really basic medical issues first
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amother
Mintcream
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Mon, Oct 11 2021, 10:40 am
| amother [ Plum ] wrote: | | It's not enough to treat for phycological symptoms. Suddenly overnight a sweet easygoing kid needs OT, speech therapy, a neurologist and therapy for anxiety and they're not related? Interesting. |
It might be related but it might be something going on in the child’s life.
I’m a bit jaded because someone very close to me with children with pandas has severe dysfunction and possible abuse going on at home but refuses to see that.
I bet if the children were placed in a better environment or the mom were to go for help a lot of the symptoms would ease up.
Yeah you can say the kids have inflammation and if they’d be healthier they wouldn’t act up and be effected even in this environment so let’s treat the inflammation. But how is that fair to the child?
First take a good look at yourself and your home and the child’s school environment and your relationship with your spouse and make sure it’s all good. Then work on pandas. Or do it together.
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amother
Jean
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Mon, Oct 11 2021, 10:40 am
| elmommy wrote: | I am going to strongly disagree. My child happens to respond horribly to virus's and it takes a few weeks to go through her system. I very much trust my pediatrician and this is most def not PANDAS or whatever you're calling it.
I also work with a child who suddenly had a change of behavior so the mother (a very good one) brought her to pediatrician and did bloodwork. Came back with bacterial infection.
I am not denying PANDAS is real cuz I'm not in the mood for a fight, but a disproportionate number of people on this site are told to check for PANDAS before checking out really basic medical issues first | I don’t understand the second example. The kid had a change in behavior, the dr looked for a bacterial infection and found one. (Presumably, the dr treated that infection and the behavioral symptoms abated).
Where do you think the doctor got the idea to look for a bacterial infection? Nowhere in the Merck Manual are behavioral changes listed in the classic symptoms or presentation of any bacterial infection under the sun. EXCEPT for in the case of pans, pandas, neurolyme, AE, and other infections that are known to cause neuroinflammation or encephalopathies, which is exactly what pandas or pans is.
If Dr. Susan Swedo hadn’t discovered pandas, and Dr. Susan Schulman hadn’t lectured and written about it so extensively about it to pediatricians in the frum community, literally no dr would go testing for bacterial infections or viral infections if a kid presented with behavioral changes. That is literally the definition of pans and pandas. If a kid ONLY showed mild transient behaviors when they were sick and pretty much went back to baseline on their own with no extra treatment, Dr. Schulman called that “sub acute pandas” or “pandas minor” (a pandas conference at Columbia university). Still the same pathophysiology. It’s only because we have this research in the last 20-30 years that drs are even thinking in this direction.
It may be common, and more drs are commonly recognizing it, but it’s still not normal.
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amother
Jean
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Mon, Oct 11 2021, 10:44 am
| amother [ Mintcream ] wrote: | It might be related but it might be something going on in the child’s life.
I’m a bit jaded because someone very close to me with children with pandas has severe dysfunction and possible abuse going on at home but refuses to see that.
I bet if the children were placed in a better environment or the mom were to go for help a lot of the symptoms would ease up.
Yeah you can say the kids have inflammation and if they’d be healthier they wouldn’t act up and be effected even in this environment so let’s treat the inflammation. But how is that fair to the child?
First take a good look at yourself and your home and the child’s school environment and your relationship with your spouse and make sure it’s all good. Then work on pandas. Or do it together. | What about children who have stable homes, parents who love each other and love them and parent them in an unconditionally loving manner and are doing great in school?
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Jewishmom8
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Mon, Oct 11 2021, 10:49 am
pandas is when over the course of a few days an older child can have a complete and severe behavioral change usually right after a bout of strep.
my son had a complete behavioral change. night and day. and there are often textbook random symptoms. all of a sudden going to the bathroom all the time. eating issues. sudden unexplained rage and odc when there was no sign before.
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amother
Jean
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Mon, Oct 11 2021, 10:50 am
| amother [ Eggshell ] wrote: | The problem is the pushing PANDAS etc when it's NOT overnight.
My 5 year old is difficult. Doesn't sleep well. Gets angry quickly and intensely.
But he was always like this. He was an intense 2 week old and 2 month old and 2 year old.
I actually don't think he has enough markers for ASD or ADHD.
But when I ask for advice, people throw PANDAS at me.
But he never changed. He was always intense. I need to learn and he needs to learn how to live with that intensity and turn it into a propellant that will help him, rather than wasting his entire childhood and all my money chasing treatments and medicines and supplements to try to change his nature. | Nobody is forcing you to pursue any treatments. But why the resistance to knowing they’re available? The sudden onset criteria in pandas and pans is a myth. Even if your child didn’t change overnight, there is still a good chance they might respond to immunomodulatory treatment. And immunomodulatory treatment is not any more wasting his childhood than any other type of therapy you may want to try. And what if teaching him won’t work, and he doesn’t learn to live around his termperament? There are plenty of adults who never learned to manage their tempers or regulate their emotions you know. I am not saying this to scare you at all, I’m sure you’re a great mom and doing a super job with your son, I’m just not sure why people who choose to address it differently aren’t making as valid a choice as you.
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amother
Cherry
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Mon, Oct 11 2021, 10:50 am
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I’m only considering PANDAS because the symptoms are new for my daughter. It isn’t usual that ADHD signs suddenly develop at age 11/12 without anything being flagged prior.
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