Why is no one working and how do they live?

amother

Papayawhip

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 12:24 am

amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:

The people who are getting child tax credits are making under $150k, much less than you. Maybe they also have tuition to pay? What about braces? (No, Medicaid doesn't always cover that). Maybe they actually got a chance to replace that 10 year old, torn and stained couch. Maybe they want to save for weddings. You cant necessarily do all that in that income bracket.

Really, if $550,000 isn't wealthy, $120,000 is not wealthy at all. And there might be plenty of stuff they cant afford. I don't mean caviar and champagne, I mean basics such as tuition, braces....

m

I pay 30% tax because I am self employed and it is crushing. We make 250k a year and have plenty of weeks where groceries are not something we can afford to buy for a bit and must make do. I owe money everywhere. We live as frugally as possible without sacrificing too much of my sanity or mental health/needs of family members.

Amother watermelon, you sound like my hero!!! I agree with you 100%%% (as someone in their 30s who lives simply, pays outageously for healthcare costs, dreams of one day paying my debts somehow, and has never been on govt programs and bitterly regrets having to pay for them.)

Amother moccasin I am extremely bewildered at your post.

amother

Aubergine

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 12:41 am

amother [ Offwhite ] wrote:

I completely understand. You and many others can be bought. I don't say this in a judgemental way. If the government incentives people to stay home and collect benefits, they will. This is especially true for people that were somewhat low income to begin with. The downside is that to fund these benefits we must print trillions and might get crippling inflation that will devastate the economy.

Does mental and emotional health of this and next generation even enter the equation?

Do you count how much it can cost the state if people turn to crime and drugs, end up unemployed due to depression and autoimmune illnesses, what burden will fall on state structures if a large number of parents are burnt out, atressed out and not there for the kids?

There are other economies where the state enables mothers to stay at home and they are not all failing.

BTW funny you say I can be bought, I said just upthread we both work and have additional income.

imaima

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 1:20 am

amother [ Watermelon ] wrote:

I tried to make it clear that for many many years we did not make ends meet. I put 4 children through braces out of my own pocket. Not only that, when my older children were young, vaccinations and well visits were not even covered by insurance! Let alone dentist bills! I got no breaks or benefits. So I am still paying for all that until this day. BH I can now! But I don't want to pay for YOURS. I didn't get to save. I slept in a bed that severely tilted - who thought about a couch! I went back to work 3 days after giving birth. I went straight from work having fasted all day to have surgery and went right back to work the next day. I worked the day after my child's wedding. Now I can bH replace my couch. Now I can save. Thank you HKBH. If someone needs tzedakah it is a zchus for me to give. But I don't believe I have to supplement your home improvements or your savings account at my expense.

So you feel that government should have been perpetuating this obsolete system because you happened to be born in a different era. Do you realize how much it would have cost the government if many people were still all getting sick with polio, diphtherie and such because they cannot afford the vaccine?

amother

Burlywood

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 2:52 am

amother [ Clover ] wrote:

Burlywood, how do Charedim go for free? Are their colleges free or do you get a refund if you show you are Charedi?
And how can u prove that? By neighborhood, HS? Signing a form? thx

You need to apply for grants and you get money.

There's an organization that helps chareidim go to college and they'd have a lot more information on it.

https://hesegim.org.il/

amother

Holly

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 4:48 am

amother [ Watermelon ] wrote:

With all due respect, I do not believe you have read through my posts. I worked for Food and Shelter. I worked to pay for my children's daily needs. Is it a choice to need to eat? Is it a choice to need a roof over your head? Is it a choice to pay for your children's yeshiva education? Is it a "choice" to pay back debt? Not in my book. Now bH I can "choose" to help my married kids etc. Now I can maybe even choose not to work! I am not bitter about my life c"v. I am bitter about being a victim of Robin Hood and his merry thieves. I have worked all my life to try to pay for my life. I don't want to pay for Yours. I give tzedakah gladly. That is not what we are talking about here.

I just want to validate your experience- my parents are going through the same thing. They can’t get normal insurance for love or money. Their only Nechama is that all their kids (besides for me 😩) can be on govt programs for now. It’s just insane how much taxes they pay to literally get nothing in return and how the healthcare system is stacked against the upper middle class.

My sister has double the children I do, doesn’t work (her husbands a rebbi) and Bh easily gets her kids everything they need. Doesn’t live so simply.

I work and so does my husband. After insurance and medical costs (7,000!!! Deductible at my last birth. Guess who couldn’t afford help post partum or nice baby clothing?!) I end up with less discretionary income than her at every turn.

amother

Cantaloupe

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 5:02 am

I’m home now with 2 kids. It saves me on two tuitions and keeps the home running a bit smoother (although I have very little free time). I also am a calmer happier mommy when I can focus on my house, hubby and kids, as opposed to being torn with outside obligations. When I used to work, my kids had a different mommy.
We have one income now. BH it works for us although there are plenty of places that I’d spend it I had the money. We have no additional income, but try to give maaser and spend responsibly. There are definitely things my kids don’t have that others do, but we live in a pretty simple neighborhood and they don’t seem to realize.
My hashkafa is that kids need a present mommy more than they need “stuff” and I wasn’t really able to pull off being present when I was working. Lol. I’m not even fully present when I’m not working but it’s better than it was/
This is NOT to pass judgment or guilt trips on anyone that is working, I understand that others are better mommies precisely because they have a life outside of dishes and diapers.

amother

Topaz

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 7:18 am

amother [ Watermelon ] wrote:

Thank you very much. I happen to agree with you and have mostly felt this way. I can look back and be very proud bH. BUT. These freebies at my expense incenses me!

I admire your hard work over so many decades, but you do know that life is a package deal, right?
Which package would you rather have?

amother

Watermelon

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 7:50 am

imaima wrote:

Huhh?? Not even remotely my point at all.

amother

Offwhite

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 7:56 am

amother [ Aubergine ] wrote:

Look, there's always a counter argument. But no, I think it's borderline crazy to expect the state (other tax payers) to pay mothers to stay home with their young children. This could last up to 20 years. Just because there's a counter argument doesn't make it a strong argument.

amother

Watermelon

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 8:00 am

amother [ Topaz ] wrote:

I admire your hard work over so many decades, but you do know that life is a package deal, right?
Which package would you rather have?

I thank H-shem every day for my "package" bH. I certainly have had much agmas nefesh from my job over the years but I am very aware that I would have had that same amount of agmas nefesh from something else had I not been working. I have had other challenges as well just like the rest of humanity. But I am now so proud to look back on all that I have accomplished (my job is definitely one of all day chesed) even though I would have quit in a second many times over the years had I been able to. I don't believe my children were compromised by my job for the most part and I served as a positive roll model. It's all good. This is not what I am "comlaining" about. And in truth I am just wasting my breath. What ever gezillion dollar bill will be passed we will all adjust just like with everything else.

amother

Watermelon

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 8:06 am

amother [ Holly ] wrote:

Yes! There are many people in this position. Speaking of baby clothes, when I read about the "doona shortage" I was reminded of how I much I wished for a "snap and go" and a glider rocking chair back in the day when my babies were born. Although my husband and I worked so hard we could not afford those items. But I was able to purchase formula and diapers bH. And now my kids are grown and I can buy them the bugaboos and doonas . Hang on!

imaima

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 8:10 am

amother [ Watermelon ] wrote:

Huhh?? Not even remotely my point at all.

We all get your point.
You worked hard and suffered and now you want others to suffer even if they don't have to.

You are bitter that there were no government freebies when you were young and now you don't get to enjoy them, but you also don't want young frum mothers to enjoy them (even if they don't, your tax money will pay for non-jewish mothers staying home with their kids too, is it something you would rather prefer?).

Is there anything we are missing?

icebreaker

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 8:11 am

amother [ Aubergine ] wrote:

Americans are so brainwashed that they believe things available around the world, even in supposed “3rd world countries,” are bad.

amother

Pumpkin

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 8:23 am

amother [ Watermelon ] wrote:

When my second child was born, I couldn't afford a carriage. I got an umbrella twin stroller from someone (the type that costs $20) and used that. It doesn't bother me at all when someone buys a twin Bugaboo (or whatever it is that they are buying now). Even if everyone now uses twin umbrella strollers (they shouldn't) you can't go back in time, and it wouldn't help me at all.

The stimulus money was only a fraction of the stimulus package, and no-one seems to have any interest in reigning in government spending so it WILL affect us at some point. Inflation causes debt to be less, so if you owe anything you will be a winner... if you have assets such as a house or houses or even stocks they will not be affected by this. There is talk of the tax rate going up, but that goes up regardless of anything when a Democrat takes office.

Here is a chart with the breakdown of where the stimulus was spent:

https://www.statista.com/chart.....-act/

Think about how the people on top are giving themselves more and more money in various different ways. The few crumbs they are throwing our way is just to appease us, the real money is being spent elsewhere.

If you want to hate someone, at least become educated about whom you should hate.

amother

Watermelon

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 8:38 am

imaima wrote:

amother

Aubergine

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 8:41 am

amother [ Offwhite ] wrote:

It works in many other countries in the world though. It is a strong enough argument for those who are ready to stick their head out of the box.

Because it is a value.

shoshanim999

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 9:15 am

imaima wrote:

Yup, you're missing the main part. What you refer to as "freebies" working people resent paying for it thru high taxes, money printing and inflation. Do you ever wonder why in years past governments didn't send out "freebies" to fend off a crisis? Why didn't they think about massive stimulus, enhanced unemployment, ppp loans, college loan forgiveness, extra food stamps, free housing and who knows what else? It's a shame, no? If the people 40 years ago would have been as smart as our government officials today they'd have thought about all these things and could have enjoyed the same freebies as the current generation.

BTW, don't you think fathers should get to stay home with their young children? Don't you think they would benefit from developing a relationship with their babies? I have an idea! The government can fund this program and give fathers 3 years at home with their young children. What could go wrong?

imaima

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 10:08 am

shoshanim999 wrote:

I have no idea what exactly is funded and why fathers cannot stay at home. They do stay at home in other countries. I am also not competent enough to comment on the decisions of past American governments because I don't even live there.

The fact that the USA is a 3rd world country when it comes to parenthood support is indisputable though.

I also don't think that inflation is Watermelon's major concern. She mentioned it maybe twice.
I suspect that if the freebies were available in her time, she would have used them and would not have cared about economy.
If she'd gotten to stay at home with her little kids, she would have fargined the younger generation to make the lifestyle choices that don't correspond with hers.

amother

Poinsettia

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 10:25 am

amother [ Cantaloupe ] wrote:

My hashkafa is that kids need a present mommy more than they need “stuff” and I wasn’t really able to pull off being present when I was working. Lol. I’m not even fully present when I’m not working but it’s better than it was/

I so relate to much of what you’re saying. My motto is “Presence over presents”. Yes I know many can do both. But I can’t. I also know that some women need to work to be able to be a better mother. I also understand that many women wish not to work and feel they must. I wish you all to be able to work or not work by choice rather than necessity or guilt.