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S/O - Modern vs Modern Orthodox, let's break it down (again)
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Post Thu, Oct 14 2021, 2:53 pm
dragoneye126 wrote:
I think it would be helpful, as someone who is about as mainstream MO as you can get and has lived in several MO communities, to give an example of how a typical US MO community works:

There’s a MO shul with a rabbi (from YU and maybe also secular college) whose job it is to lead his (yes, his) community spiritually by teaching on Shabbat, giving classes during the week, providing spiritual support during lifecycle events, and providing halachic guidance when asked. This includes grilling witnesses about their level of observance before allowing them to sign a ketubah, btw.

85% or more of the families send their kids to Jewish day school (which has high standards for Judaic and secular studies and so is very expensive). Everyone who goes to shul on Shabbat chooses to do so because it’s important to them, even though no one would look down on them for skipping occasionally. This is a big deal because they are integrated into the secular world, so they have given up personal or professional opportunities in order to be at shul/keep Shabbat. There will probably be some doctors who come late/get called in the middle of shul, and this is normal because the community understands that each individual doctor has consulted with halachic authority to reach an understanding of pikuach nefesh that is specific to their work.

After davening there is kiddish at shul with catered food/cookies. No food from home would ever be served in shul- everything has to come directly from a kosher place. This is because some families are more or less makpidim on kashrut than others. After kiddish most people go home, though a very few go back to their secular lives, including driving.

After shul they may or may not go to eat a family's house that doesn’t keep strict Shabbos- that is up to the individuals. Because the community includes different levels of observance it’s not really offensive to ask about kashrut, and the rabbi might have a rule to not eat from anyone’s home just to make it easy.

How do people know about each family’s level of observance? That’s easy- there is no stigma attached to more/less observance, so people are open about it. Besides, the MO community is pretty small (limited schools, Shuls, etc), so you know most people very well.


1. Kol hakavod. I know that Shabbos nisyonos still exist. I can definitely appreciate it for people who weren't born into it. But isn't it a given? Sure, there are times where someone has to give up leave early, pass on lucrative projects, or maybe even find a new job but "giving up personal/professional opportunities" in the 21st century is not what it was for my grandparents and great-grandparents.

2. Yes, I've been to kiddushin that are homemade and not just by the hosts. If I don't trust the hosts, and their judgment in what to serve, I won't eat.

3. How can I tactfully ask people how they deal with buggy produce? It's really not the same as asking about CY or yoshon.
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Post Thu, Oct 14 2021, 3:10 pm
simcha2 wrote:
I think that this is the disconnect. From the outside that is exactly how it looks. That the yeshivish world has no problem with people cheating on their taxes (for example), because such behavior doesn't "disqualify" one from being considered frum.
.


Every single yeshivish person and rav. Right.
Rav Schwab zt"l said that such people aren't frum.
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Chayalle




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Oct 14 2021, 3:11 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
Every single yeshivish person and rav. Right.
Rav Schwab zt"l said that such people aren't frum.


A granddaughter of R' Schwab zt'l told my mother that R' Schwab said that when Jewish people cheat on their taxes, Israeli Jewish soldiers die.

It's something I remember every year when I file....
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Post Thu, Oct 14 2021, 3:19 pm
tp3 wrote:
Ok. In the past I remember some MO posters saying that these 13 ikrim aren't relevant to them because they have their own set of ikrim. Or something to that extent.
Thank you for clarifying.


It's not "their own set of ikrim." It's that not everyone agrees with everything, or so I've heard. Possibly here.
Here are some links when I googled 13 principles of faith modern orthodoxy. I can't open all the links fully.

https://academic.oup.com/mj/ar.....26979
https://www.amazon.com/Limits-.....64239
https://forward.com/news/6488/.....ples/ (my filter totally blocks this. I have no idea who the author is.)
https://muse.jhu.edu/article/723699
https://jewishaction.com/books.....mbam/ (here's a review)
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Post Thu, Oct 14 2021, 3:23 pm
chanchy123 wrote:
The homes were completely kosher, everyone went to shul, but not all the homes kept Shabbat like we did.
The mother in the family I was staying by washed the floors on Shabbat afternoon. I was shocked.
But do you know what? I don’t think it was a bad experience and I’m happy we were sent there.
I’m happy we were introduced to a way of life that was outside our bubble and outside our comfort zone and I hope I didn’t offend my hosts by being shell-shocked.
I wish my kids also have the opportunity to see the genuine emunah and traditional observance I experienced that Shabbat.


Unless there's a mekor for washing floors on Shabbos, it's not "not [keeping] Shabbat like we did." It's chillul Shabbos. Not malicious necessarily, and doesn't negate the genuine emunah of this community.
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Post Thu, Oct 14 2021, 3:26 pm
simcha2 wrote:
You seem to have missed the opening post.

I do see reliance on da'as Torah for non-halachic issues as more of a negative than a positive. It is a wholly recent (last 100 years or so) development, on balance, in my opinion has led to some serious issues.

It had led to rigid conformity and idea (expressed in this thread) that somehow people should be "disqualified" for not conforming.

Once the color of someone's shirt becomes the way we judge someone's character and relationship to Hashem we have left Torah ideals far behind.


Not everyone judges people based on the color of their shirts. And I know some very yeshivish people who wear colored shirts, maybe primarily at work but they don't davka change for minyan.
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simcha2




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Oct 14 2021, 3:30 pm
Chayalle wrote:
A granddaughter of R' Schwab zt'l told my mother that R' Schwab said that when Jewish people cheat on their taxes, Israeli Jewish soldiers die.

It's something I remember every year when I file....


Serious question. If there was someone who you knew got paid "under the table" to put them under the income limit to receive benefits, would you be OK with the kashrus in their home?
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chanchy123




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Oct 14 2021, 3:39 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
Unless there's a mekor for washing floors on Shabbos, it's not "not [keeping] Shabbat like we did." It's chillul Shabbos. Not malicious necessarily, and doesn't negate the genuine emunah of this community.

Of course, but that doesn’t mean we couldn’t be guests in the house for Shabbat.
I don’t think the woman knew this was a violation of Shabbat.
She for sure wouldn’t have defined herself as MO either of course, just Jewish. It was just an example of being in home that wasn’t 100% shomer Shabbat isn’t necessarily a damaging experience, but an opportunity for growth.
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tp3




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Oct 14 2021, 3:48 pm
Chayalle wrote:
I'm yeshivish and I have RWMO relatives, and I know that they keep to the Halachos of Kashrus. I eat in their homes, no questions. So does my yeshivish DH. We know they keep Kosher, period.
However, if I met someone who is MO and didn't know them, I can't say I would assume that they diligently follow these Halachos, because of the broad spectrum of people who consider themselves MO.

I agree with this but also want to say that just because a person looks a certain way doesn't mean I trust their kashrus immediately.
People are people, and including myself, can make mistakes or not be aware or even get a little lazy.
You really have to know someone to trust them no matter what uniform they wear.
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tp3




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Oct 14 2021, 3:51 pm
chanchy123 wrote:
Of course, but that doesn’t mean we couldn’t be guests in the house for Shabbat.
I don’t think the woman knew this was a violation of Shabbat.
She for sure wouldn’t have defined herself as MO either of course, just Jewish. It was just an example of being in home that wasn’t 100% shomer Shabbat isn’t necessarily a damaging experience, but an opportunity for growth.

I don't want to speak about this specific woman but if someone else let's say doesn't know something basic about shabbos, how do you know if her knowledge of kashrus is solid? And how can they ask someone not totally shomer shabbos to host children for shabbos?
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Oct 14 2021, 4:06 pm
EPL wrote:
I grew up in a somewhat MO/Yeshivish home. My father was a Yeshiva man, as were my brothers, all of whom wore black yamukas. I married a YU man who wears a kipah sruga. I believe people judge others by their head covering, and if you're wearing a kippah sruga you appear less frum. Even though I know my husband is just as frum as my black velvet wearing brothers, I have wished that he would change his head covering.
No, that is not true all around. This is true only for those who are not kipa sruga wearers. I know many very very frum kipa sruga wearers.
And its a very sad statement to make that you wish your husband wore a different kipa. Its just a kipa.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Oct 14 2021, 4:17 pm
Plonis wrote:
Having read through this whole thread with interest, I appreciate the hashkafa much more.

Still, although there are definitely outliers, someone who identifies "yeshivish" or "chassidish" is bechezkas kashrus in terms of kashrus, meaning I can make a safe assumption that in the vast majority of cases they are keeping a high standard of kosher.

The same cannot be said for someone who identifies as MO, either for the reason that they identify as such but don't actually practice, or because they consider much of my standard of kashrus to be chumra. So before I would eat their food, I would need to ask to find out, at the risk of sounding insulting.

The way someone dresses may be cultural or chumra, but it does allow us to make a pretty good guess as to where they identify themselves. In the case of MO, the lack of "uniform" has some advantages, but does mean that others can't easily assess their likely level of observance or knowledge.

So that changes the "chezkas kashrus" I assume on others, rightly or wrongly. I assume that someone who dresses tznius will understand Jewish lexicon and respects halacha overall, and I would be correct in the vast majority of cases. Someone dressing non-tznius I will assume to be non-observant and ignorant of halacha, and again I would be correct in the vast majority of cases (non-Jews skewing the results significantly of course). I don't know if there is a way around this.
But here in lies the difference between MO/DL and the charedi world. I dont take into account the way my neighbor dresses when thinking about if I can or cant eat in her home. We go to the same shul, she sends her kids to orthodox schools, she goes to shul every shabbat, and she covers hair and wears pants. I would have no objections to her food. I would not think twice about it.
The way she dresses has no baring on anything. I dont even think about her kashrut. And most definitely not in connection to the way she dresses. Major difference in MO world.
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SixOfWands




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Oct 14 2021, 4:18 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
Unless there's a mekor for washing floors on Shabbos, it's not "not [keeping] Shabbat like we did." It's chillul Shabbos. Not malicious necessarily, and doesn't negate the genuine emunah of this community.


Is it?

Virtually every authority permits some "sprinkling" of the floor if there's a spill or mess. Indeed, some Rishonim allowed washing all the floors of the house with a large amount of water, as long as most houses in the city have surfaced floors. But it would need to be done with something that would not involve wringing.

So maybe this person's rabbi followed some obscure interpretation.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Oct 14 2021, 4:20 pm
tp3 wrote:
A heter to sell baked goods from their own kitchen. Or some of the other examples you brought, obviously not the child predator example. There may be some halachos or interpretations that you wouldn't know about unless you've studied halacha in a yeshivish or chassidish setting.

There has to be some sort of parameters because the rule of the big 3 exists.
Someone else mentioned that keeping shabbos would mean your kashrus is good. But others said it's more than that. Maybe every community is different? Is something like the 13 ikrim taught in a typical MO school?
Not something LIKE the yud gimmel ikarim, but the ACTUAL yud gimmel Ikarim because we are FRUM jews.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Oct 14 2021, 4:21 pm
tp3 wrote:
Ok. In the past I remember some MO posters saying that these 13 ikrim aren't relevant to them because they have their own set of ikrim. Or something to that extent.
Thank you for clarifying.
That does not make any sense. Im sorry. The 13 ikarim is supposed to be one of the foundations of being a frum Jew.
We ALL learn it at some point.
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Post Thu, Oct 14 2021, 4:43 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
Is it?

Virtually every authority permits some "sprinkling" of the floor if there's a spill or mess. Indeed, some Rishonim allowed washing all the floors of the house with a large amount of water, as long as most houses in the city have surfaced floors. But it would need to be done with something that would not involve wringing.

So maybe this person's rabbi followed some obscure interpretation.


There are many instances of differing opinions that we totally discount now, that aren't even taught as minority opinions that one can rely on. Is this one of those cases? Is it only in great need? What are the parameters?
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SixOfWands




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Oct 14 2021, 4:47 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
There are many instances of differing opinions that we totally discount now, that aren't even taught as minority opinions that one can rely on. Is this one of those cases? Is it only in great need? What are the parameters?


I've no idea. I'm pointing out that its not as simple as people like to pretend.

If the toddler dropped a full glass of OJ on the kitchen floor exactly 21 minute after lighting, there is not a one of us who wouldn't wipe it up, and just about everyone would do something to deal with the stickiness. And that would be fine. So some washing is OK, sometimes.

The question is how much. And why.
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BadTichelDay




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Oct 14 2021, 4:49 pm
Just a little side spin: regarding the temptation to judge people's frumkeit and kashrut by their dress code - it is a very unreliable measuring rod.
Right now, with the clothes which are in my wardrobe, behind me here in the room, I can dress the entire spectrum from very dati-lite to the deepest torani-chardal and everything in between. I even have 2 very rarely used sheitels somewhere and things that could pass as chareidi. I can change from one extreme to the other in a few minutes. I have worn both extremes on occasion (when visiting Me'ah She'arim vs. vacation outside Israel). In normal life I dress somewhere around the DL middle ground.

None of this has had any influence on my kashrut standards. They are solidly always the same throughout the years. Even though people would probably attribute very differing standards to me when going by the dress code alone at different times. But one isn't linked to the other.
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Mermaidinexile




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Oct 14 2021, 5:50 pm
Fox wrote:


My own rejection of Modern Orthodoxy has less to do with any of those factors and more to do with the fact that most MO people (though not necessarily rabbonim) I've encountered see reliance on daas Torah as a negative rather than a positive.


Is that truly why you "reject" Modern Orthodoxy, or is that merely your stated reason? In Modern Orthodoxy, you ask a rav when a halchakic question is involved. We do not have the concept of conferring with "daas torah" as a way of absolving oneself of decision making or reliquishing the task of honing one's sechel. My rav would feel it strange if I asked him about what neighborhood to live in or where to vacation. Fear of your god-given ability to use koach hasechel is indeed seen as a negative. But sure, go ahead and reject an entire movement.
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Crookshanks




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Oct 14 2021, 7:13 pm
Fascinating thread. I'm enjoying this a lot, particularly Fox's posts.
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