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S/O - Modern vs Modern Orthodox, let's break it down (again)
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yamaha




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Oct 14 2021, 7:15 pm
Somehow I unfollowed this post, and I came back now 6 pages later ... (though I actually was able to get some work done today Smile)

Some comments -

- About drawing a line between Modern Orthodoxy and non-observance
There has actually been concerted effort in recent years to make a strong boundary between left-wing Modern Orthodox and Open Orthodox, where some leaders and teachers have made claims that are against Halacha, the Torah, or outright kefirah. So that definitely exists.

Orthodoxy means believing in the Torah and keeping Halacha - there's your line.

"Modern" Orthodoxy doesn't mean doing it less, it means doing it differently (see my OP).

- About daas torah
In the previous posts, when I and others said that that's not a core value, we were referring to consulting a rav on mon-halachic matters, and potentially having the rav make the decision, assuming he has a greater level of insight or knowledge.

Of course MO individuals learn from their rabbanim and seek guidance from them. It is definitely a value that an MO community seeks when selecting a rav, and that rabbanim seek to make available to their community. RIETS (YU's rabbinical school) has a lot of training in pastoral counseling, in particular.

For a hashkafic matter, a person may seek to learn from their rav what the Torah says about something. For a non-hashkafic, life decision matter, the rav is seen as more of a mentor / guide, not as possessing superior insight. Therefore, a person/couple will speak to their rav as needed when it makes sense to them to do so.

- About welcoming non-observant people into the community
Because there isn't a strong emphasis on dress, the barrier to entry is easier. When it comes down to it, people tend to figure out what someone else does/doesn't keep in Halacha as needed (I.e. if invited for a Shabbos meal). If someone isn't observant, they aren't observant. They can call themselves MO, Chassidish, yeshivish, etc. However, they probably won't call themselves the latter two since there's usually some outward presentation that goes along with the label. And if they decide to call themselves MO, that's their decision, but it doesn't make them any more observant in the eyes of anyone else. (Though perhaps they'd be seen as striving in their Judaism!)
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yamaha




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Oct 14 2021, 7:19 pm
In terms of Shabbos = Kashrus -- there's actually a legitimate discussion in the Poskim about how we can trust each other's kashrut. Why doesn't my friend's house need a mashgiach in order for me to eat there, like a restaurant would?

Halacha allows for a single witness (I.e. in this case, the person who did the cooking), and we assess the validity of that witness based on how they seem to keep other things (particularly Shabbos).

So Shabbos isn't the be-all and end-all, but if I'm looking for a barometer of basic kashrus observance, Shabbos would be the place to look.
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Fox




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Oct 14 2021, 8:14 pm
Mermaidinexile wrote:
Is that truly why you "reject" Modern Orthodoxy, or is that merely your stated reason? In Modern Orthodoxy, you ask a rav when a halchakic question is involved. We do not have the concept of conferring with "daas torah" as a way of absolving oneself of decision making or reliquishing the task of honing one's sechel. My rav would feel it strange if I asked him about what neighborhood to live in or where to vacation. Fear of your god-given ability to use koach hasechel is indeed seen as a negative. But sure, go ahead and reject an entire movement.

Not that I don't appreciate free psychoanalysis on Imamother, but do I actually seem like the kind of person who wants someone else to lead me around on a short rope?

This is the same argument used by non-religious people to criticize religious peopleof all faiths, and it's no less facile here.

But one clarification needs to be made: a shul rav is almost never daas Torah. In fact, many yeshivish shuls don't even have a rav. When I refer to daas Torah, it is generally someone much older who combines knowledge of halacha, hashkafa, and wisdom. It might be a rosh yeshiva, rebbe, or teacher with extensive experience. Daas Torah is not a posek. We ask halachis shailos to a posek; we seek guidance from daas Torah.

When important decisions need to be made, why wouldn't I want to hear the thoughts of someone with more experience and a broader perspective than me? My observation is that people who claim to be following their own seichel are often influenced by all kinds of factors that they've never identified.

Before his petirah, my DH and I consulted his rebbe, Rabbi Chaim Dov Keller, z"tl. Never once did he tell us what to do. But he was invaluable at helping us recognize what was most important.

Of particular interest to this conversation, he was excellent at helping us discern when to conform and when to stand our ground. Believe me, it's not reliance on daas Torah that is responsible for excessive or badly-appied conformity. It's usually the lack of it.
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LovesHashem




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Oct 15 2021, 2:46 am
PinkFridge wrote:
There are many instances of differing opinions that we totally discount now, that aren't even taught as minority opinions that one can rely on. Is this one of those cases? Is it only in great need? What are the parameters?


I just read last shabbos in a Halacha book if it’s causes severe discomfort like making the floor sticky like orange juice, or its smelly, like throw up. You can spray some windex and use water with a sponja stick.

It definitely said you can’t wash the whole floor, but again there were different opinions and I’m sure someone at some point said you can, it’s just not something the RW community holds as a main opinion.
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tp3




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Oct 15 2021, 8:36 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:
That does not make any sense. Im sorry. The 13 ikarim is supposed to be one of the foundations of being a frum Jew.
We ALL learn it at some point.

I went back and found the thread where Yael announced the new site rules of believing in the 13 ikrim. There are pages of vehement outrage from MO posters on that thread, accusing Yael of not wanting MO women on this site.

So my question was legit.
If you say that MO teaches and believes in the 13 ikrim, then the only conclusion I can come to is that those 5-10 women don't fit the MO criteria and only self-identify as MO.
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LovesHashem




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Oct 15 2021, 8:41 am
tp3 wrote:
I went back and found the thread where Yael announced the new site rules of believing in the 13 ikrim. There are pages of vehement outrage from MO posters on that thread, accusing Yael of not wanting MO women on this site.

So my question was legit.
If you say that MO teaches and believes in the 13 ikrim, then the only conclusion I can come to is that those 5-10 women don't fit the MO criteria and only self-identify as MO.


Can you link that thread? It sounds really fascinating. Some posters on this thread also said you don’t need to believe in them either.
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Chayalle




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Oct 15 2021, 8:57 am
simcha2 wrote:
Serious question. If there was someone who you knew got paid "under the table" to put them under the income limit to receive benefits, would you be OK with the kashrus in their home?


Assuming I know them well enough to trust their Kashrus standards, then yes. Same as people who are MO whom I know well enough to trust Kashrus.
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Chayalle




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Oct 15 2021, 8:59 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:
But here in lies the difference between MO/DL and the charedi world. I dont take into account the way my neighbor dresses when thinking about if I can or cant eat in her home. We go to the same shul, she sends her kids to orthodox schools, she goes to shul every shabbat, and she covers hair and wears pants. I would have no objections to her food. I would not think twice about it.
The way she dresses has no baring on anything. I dont even think about her kashrut. And most definitely not in connection to the way she dresses. Major difference in MO world.


So how would you know if someone MO does not keep Kashrus standards that you can trust?

I'm assuming that as an insider to the MO world (which I am not) you know where you would need to be careful and where you wouldn't.
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simcha2




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Oct 15 2021, 9:08 am
Chayalle wrote:
Assuming I know them well enough to trust their Kashrus standards, then yes. Same as people who are MO whom I know well enough to trust Kashrus.


I don't think this is about yeshivish/ mo. But posters here have said that they couldn't trust the kashrus of someone who doesn't keep shabbos, by that measure I don't understand how they can eat in the home of someone who isn't yashar.
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Chayalle




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Oct 15 2021, 9:11 am
simcha2 wrote:
I don't think this is about yeshivish/ mo. But posters here have said that they couldn't trust the kashrus of someone who doesn't keep shabbos, by that measure I don't understand how they can eat in the home of someone who isn't yashar.



It's not like I go around questioning people about how they report their income. So if I know this about someone, presumably I know them well enough to know their Kashrus standards as well.

I once told a friend that the only government program I have ever been on was WIC, and that was only for the first 6 months of my oldest daughter's life, after which I got a raise and was disqualified. She told me I should reject raises (!) because government programs are worth more than raises. I did not follow her advice. But she didn't tell me to cheat on the amount I earn....
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tp3




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Oct 15 2021, 9:18 am
LovesHashem wrote:
Can you link that thread? It sounds really fascinating. Some posters on this thread also said you don’t need to believe in them either.

I'd really rather not because I found it rather unpleasant and generally stay away from spreading negativity.

If you do a search for "principles of faith" or something like that, it's easy to find.
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LovesHashem




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Oct 15 2021, 9:32 am
simcha2 wrote:
I don't think this is about yeshivish/ mo. But posters here have said that they couldn't trust the kashrus of someone who doesn't keep shabbos, by that measure I don't understand how they can eat in the home of someone who isn't yashar.


If I knew someone wasn’t yashar I wouldn’t.

A restaurant where my sister in law lives lied about their hashgocha. They put out ads that they had a mehadrin hescher when they did not. Lesson learned, always ask to see a copy of a Tuedah.

No matter what hashgocha they get I will never eat there. Unless the place is bought by someone else and gets a new owner.
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LovesHashem




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Oct 15 2021, 9:40 am
tp3 wrote:
I'd really rather not because I found it rather unpleasant and generally stay away from spreading negativity.

If you do a search for "principles of faith" or something like that, it's easy to find.


Found the thread. Slightly horrifying. I only read two pages, but still. Mocking the Torah, Yael, and anyone who believes in the 13 ani maamin’s. Saying that conservative leaning people should be allowed on an orthodox website, and post that dispute the a Torah and Orthodox beliefs should be allowed?

Imamother must of been very different then.
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Mommyg8




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Oct 15 2021, 9:40 am
simcha2 wrote:
Serious question. If there was someone who you knew got paid "under the table" to put them under the income limit to receive benefits, would you be OK with the kashrus in their home?

I'm really late to this party, and I have not read through this entire thread (yet) but I just want to point out that there are actually different halachic opinions regarding this topic. I'm guessing that the people you are referring to are relying on those opinions. So, in this particular case, it's not about laxity in following halachah, it's about different streams of Judaism following different opinions.
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Laiya




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Oct 15 2021, 9:40 am
simcha2 wrote:
I think the MO world and the yeshivish world deal with molestation and tax/benefit fraud very, very differently. And how those people are treated is very, very different.


Not in my experience. While the yeshivish world may not always address these issues optimally, I have seen similar responses in the MO community.
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Laiya




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Oct 15 2021, 9:47 am
simcha2 wrote:
I don't think this is about yeshivish/ mo. But posters here have said that they couldn't trust the kashrus of someone who doesn't keep shabbos, by that measure I don't understand how they can eat in the home of someone who isn't yashar.


Your implication that lack of yashrus is more accepted in the yeshivish community than in the MO community is....surprising, and I'll leave it at that. Unless I'm misunderstanding your post.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Oct 15 2021, 10:29 am
Chayalle wrote:
So how would you know if someone MO does not keep Kashrus standards that you can trust?

I'm assuming that as an insider to the MO world (which I am not) you know where you would need to be careful and where you wouldn't.
Im in israel, so the people in my community are shopping in tbe same stores as me. Its all kosher to my standards.
But it was basically the same growing up.MO in america.
But if we werent sure maybe we would ask the shul/community rav. But I dont remember my parents ever asking such a question.
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simcha2




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Oct 15 2021, 10:51 am
Laiya wrote:
Your implication that lack of yashrus is more accepted in the yeshivish community than in the MO community is....surprising, and I'll leave it at that. Unless I'm misunderstanding your post.


You obviously missed the very first line of my post.
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Chayalle




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Oct 15 2021, 11:39 am
LovesHashem wrote:
If I knew someone wasn’t yashar I wouldn’t.

A restaurant where my sister in law lives lied about their hashgocha. They put out ads that they had a mehadrin hescher when they did not. Lesson learned, always ask to see a copy of a Tuedah.

No matter what hashgocha they get I will never eat there. Unless the place is bought by someone else and gets a new owner.


This reminds me, years ago my father knew a certain person who worked as a Mashgiach in a certain restaurant. My father was talking to him and he told my father, if you eat there you should only eat the Pareve dishes, as the meat is not totally reliable.

My father asked him HOW HE COULD BE THE MASHGIACH and the meat is not totally reliable, and he told my father that it's fine for the clientele that generally frequents the place.

Whereupon my father said he would not eat ANYTHING that this man gives a hecsher for.
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Chayalle




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Oct 15 2021, 11:42 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:
Im in israel, so the people in my community are shopping in tbe same stores as me. Its all kosher to my standards.
But it was basically the same growing up.MO in america.
But if we werent sure maybe we would ask the shul/community rav. But I dont remember my parents ever asking such a question.


So if you say that MO accepts many different types, and not all of them are Shomer Halacha, then I'm surprised that you wouldn't question the Halachic status of their Kashrus.

To me, someone has a Chezkas Kashrus if they are known to keep Halacha. But if they are not, then they lose that Chezkas Kashrus.

My RWMO relatives keep Halacha. They keep Shabbos, they keep Kosher, they keep their standards of tzniut, they keep Taharas Hamishpacha. So I feel comfortable eating in their homes.
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