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S/O - Modern vs Modern Orthodox, let's break it down (again)
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yamaha




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Oct 13 2021, 12:41 pm
elmommy wrote:
I'm going to just play a bit devils advocate here, but first I'll give my background so I get attacked a little less. I grew up in a MO community but not as MO. Always viewed myself as frum but never defined. I now live in a yeshivaish community with minimal MO presence. I appear to be yeshivaish but I have a very hard time really "fitting in" and I still view myself as not really part of the community. So I've basically seen both communities as an outsider.

I'm wondering how old you are and if you feel like things have changed for the younger generation? I see a lot of passion in the older generation about being MO and really understanding the hashkafa but I have not seen that much of it in the younger generation and more a complacency (not generalizing everyone I'm just asking about my observations). I happen to see that also in the younger generation yeshivaish so might be a generational thing.
Where I live now, the MO school is filled with ppl not MO so in this community really I dont blame ppl for thinking MO is modern.


I'm pretty young. From what I've seen, it kind of goes in both directions. (I.e. older people who learned by the Rav more passionate about 'true' modern Orthodoxy, and older people not as knowledgeable in certain areas of Halacha. Younger people with a more watered down version of halacha/Torah and younger people who are much stricter than their parents and have beloved copies of Lonely Man of Faith Smile)

There definitely is such a thing as 'modern', and I don't disagree that sometimes individuals from a modern yeshivish and modern orthodox community may act or dress similarly. Just that the root of the observance is coming from a different place, and the two may be going in different directions.
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chanchy123




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Oct 13 2021, 12:41 pm
ccwife wrote:
Thanks for this explanation. Would you say that the Rabbanim of each "type" hold of the other ones? Do they disagree ever and do they discuss their views?

I think it’s sort of like yeshivish rabbis and MO - so sort of depends on the individuals, but a lot of times there is friction - at least in Israel (but most rabbis and people are in the middle so not really involved - but for sure there is mutual discord between the edges).
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yamaha




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Oct 13 2021, 12:44 pm
ccwife wrote:
Thanks for this explanation. Would you say that the Rabbanim of each "type" hold of the other ones? Do they disagree ever and do they discuss their views?


They would disagree (in both directions), but barring specific circumstances, they might not do so publicly and/or against specific individuals.
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ccwife




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Oct 13 2021, 12:45 pm
simcha2 wrote:
No one would ask about TV in the home. Or whether the Yiddish substitute is the same. (These are both hashkafic and not halachic issues).

With regard to the two families, is it that they are hashkafically/halachically different, or that they have different levels of observance? Meaning, if you asked both of them to describe the ideal would that be different?

(So if there is a yeshivish guy who doesn't daven shacharit is he hashkafically different to the guy who does? Or is he just at a lower level of observance?).


Ok so shailos are asked less, I got that now. But it's still doesn't make sense to me that one derech could produce such different talmidim! But again based on these posts my opinion is that it's because shailos are asked less leads to everyone making their own decisions. That makes sense to me.

I don't know how to respond to your second point. The men in my community (kollel, not Yeshivish) all daven shachris. But even if they didn't they wouldn't have any leader who would condone it. Therefore, it would mean that that is something they are striving to work on not that they don't think it needs to happen at all.

Maybe that's all I'm asking though. Are there LW MO Rabbanim that look and act like their congregants?
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chanchy123




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Oct 13 2021, 12:51 pm
ccwife wrote:
Ok so shailos are asked less, I got that now. But it's still doesn't make sense to me that one derech could produce such different talmidim! But again based on these posts my opinion is that it's because shailos are asked less leads to everyone making their own decisions. That makes sense to me.

I don't know how to respond to your second point. The men in my community (kollel, not Yeshivish) all daven shachris. But even if they didn't they wouldn't have any leader who would condone it. Therefore, it would mean that that is something they are striving to work on not that they don't think it needs to happen at all.

Maybe that's all I'm asking though. Are there LW MO Rabbanim that look and act like their congregants?

I think I missed something here, but LWMO RABBANIM all follow (or strive to because no ones perfect) Halacha strictly according to their hashkafa and psika. If a rav says it’s halachicly ok to swim on Shabbat he may or may not do it - but there is no way he’d be mechalel Shabbat if he thought what he was doing was wrong.
I.e. for sure daven three times a day - but also maybe daven without a mechitza or with a woman saying pesukei dezimra- not because he’s lax but because he thinks it’s the right thing (or just not the wrong thing) to do.
You won’t find a LWMO Rabbi who is dati lite, that negates the definition.
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ccwife




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Oct 13 2021, 1:00 pm
chanchy123 wrote:
I think I missed something here, but LWMO RABBANIM all follow (or strive to because no ones perfect) Halacha strictly according to their hashkafa and psika. If a rav says it’s halachicly ok to swim on Shabbat he may or may not do it - but there is no way he’d be mechalel Shabbat if he thought what he was doing was wrong.
I.e. for sure daven three times a day - but also maybe daven without a mechitza or with a woman saying pesukei dezimra- not because he’s lax but because he thinks it’s the right thing (or just not the wrong thing) to do.
You won’t find a LWMO Rabbi who is dati lite, that negates the definition.


No I think it's me who's missing something Smile. I think that in the Yeshiva world, Rabbanim mostly don't have their own opinions like that. A young Rav will call his Rav who has an opinion based on his Rebbi or Rav. Back to the daas Torah point - even our Rabbanim follow mesorah.

I think I was looking at the MO world through my "everything needs a mesorah" lense and it wasn't making sense. Now that I realize that, everyone's answers do work Smile. Thanks for the explanations everyone! Sorry OP for detailing the thread so much!
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simcha2




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Oct 13 2021, 1:01 pm
ccwife wrote:
Ok so shailos are asked less, I got that now. But it's still doesn't make sense to me that one derech could produce such different talmidim! But again based on these posts my opinion is that it's because shailos are asked less leads to everyone making their own decisions. That makes sense to me.

I don't know how to respond to your second point. The men in my community (kollel, not Yeshivish) all daven shachris. But even if they didn't they wouldn't have any leader who would condone it. Therefore, it would mean that that is something they are striving to work on not that they don't think it needs to happen at all.

Maybe that's all I'm asking though. Are there LW MO Rabbanim that look and act like their congregants?


It's not that shailos are asked less, it's what constitutes a shailah is different.

That's my point about davening shacharit, there is no one that would say it is OK not to daven, but there are people who don't daven. It is a lower level of observance (or "lite"), not a difference in hashkafa. Both think davening is the ideal, those not doing it (and looking at the posts on Imamother of women complaining that their dh doesn't daven, they are definitely out there), they are just not as observant.

The issue with people judging MO, is 1) the tent is much broader, so people who are not as observant identity as MO and then others looking in think that that means MO hashkafa is not halacha-centric and 2) there is a lot less emphasis on non-halachic identifiers (so you can't necessarily "see" how frum someone is by the way they dress etc.

Eta-re mesorah, every MO rav paskens according to mesorah. No one makes up their own understanding of halacha.


Last edited by simcha2 on Wed, Oct 13 2021, 1:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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chick567




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Oct 13 2021, 1:01 pm
You shouldn’t judge the yeshivish derech by the Modern Yeshivish who is lax with tznius and wears shortsleeves and mini skirts.
You also shouldn’t judge the MO derech by the modern MO woman who wears tank tops and shorts.
Both are not representing the community they associate with.

But nobody would claim that actually the modern yeshivish short sleeve mini skirt woman is following what her rav holds. And nobody would claim that the modern MO wearing tank tops and shorts is following what her rav holds.

They are both struggling with tznius and don’t represent their community.
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ccwife




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Oct 13 2021, 1:06 pm
simcha2 wrote:
It's not that shailos are asked less, it's what constitutes a shailah is different.

That's my point about davening shacharit, there is no one that would say it is OK not to daven, but there are people who don't daven. It is a lower level of observance (or "lite"), not a difference in hashkafa. Both think davening is the ideal, those not doing it (and looking at the posts on Imamother of women complaining that their dh doesn't daven, they are definitely out there), they are just not as observant.

The issue with people judging MO, is 1) the tent is much broader, so people who are not as observant identity as MO and then others looking in think that that means MO hashkafa is not halacha-centric and 2) there is a lot less emphasis on non-halachic identifiers (so you can't necessarily "see" how frum someone is by the way they dress etc.


K I think I need a definition of LW MO. I grew up out of town with only a few shuls. The Rav of the MO shul is RW MO, I always thought that the congregants were LW MO, but I think they are just not so observant like you are saying.
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chanchy123




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Oct 13 2021, 1:08 pm
ccwife wrote:
No I think it's me who's missing something Smile. I think that in the Yeshiva world, Rabbanim mostly don't have their own opinions like that. A young Rav will call his Rav who has an opinion based on his Rebbi or Rav. Back to the daas Torah point - even our Rabbanim follow mesorah.

I think I was looking at the MO world through my "everything needs a mesorah" lense and it wasn't making sense. Now that I realize that, everyone's answers do work Smile. Thanks for the explanations everyone! Sorry OP for detailing the thread so much!

Yes, I guess so. Also there is a lot of movement within the groups. A RWMO rav may very well have grown up in a more LW home and gone to more centrist yeshivot and vice verse.
Families will tend to have adult children on a wider spectrum. Also while there are very LW and very TW schools many times there will be a large spectrum in the student body.
I believe it’s more like three generations ago when our grandparents and great grandparents mostly came from similar communities with their descents going to the more yeshivish/chasdidish/MO paths- they were just frum Jews.
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simcha2




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Oct 13 2021, 1:13 pm
ccwife wrote:
K I think I need a definition of LW MO. I grew up out of town with only a few shuls. The Rav of the MO shul is RW MO, I always thought that the congregants were LW MO, but I think they are just not so observant like you are saying.


LWMO is hashkafically on the edge of MO. So they hold that a woman can lein in shul, for example. They hold this within the bounds of halacha (so according the mishna berura/shulchan aruch a woman can lein, but doesn't because of kavud hatzibbur. LWMO, hold that kavod hatzibbur doesn't apply if the tzibbur is OK with it).

But within this, it still means davening 3 times a day etc.

Observance and hashkafa are not synonymous.
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yamaha




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Oct 13 2021, 1:16 pm
ccwife wrote:
No I think it's me who's missing something Smile. I think that in the Yeshiva world, Rabbanim mostly don't have their own opinions like that. A young Rav will call his Rav who has an opinion based on his Rebbi or Rav. Back to the daas Torah point - even our Rabbanim follow mesorah.

I think I was looking at the MO world through my "everything needs a mesorah" lense and it wasn't making sense. Now that I realize that, everyone's answers do work Smile. Thanks for the explanations everyone! Sorry OP for detailing the thread so much!


Just wanted to add - there's mesorah in modern Orthodoxy as well, it didn't come out of nowhere. (ex: R' Soloveitchik is a descendant of Brisk, and there's a lot of that influence in his psak and hashkafa.) So the concept didn't originate in Brisk (obviously), but R' Soloveitchik didn't totally pasken on his own.

When we call our rav, if he doesn't know the answer, he looks it up or calls another rav (and up the chain...). But sometimes he'll teach DH more background about it or DH will ask more questions about it, so DH can look it up on his own in the future.
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ccwife




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Oct 13 2021, 1:18 pm
simcha2 wrote:
LWMO is hashkafically on the edge of MO. So they hold that a woman can lein in shul, for example. They hold this within the bounds of halacha (so according the mishna berura/shulchan aruch a woman can lein, but doesn't because of kavud hatzibbur. LWMO, hold that kavod hatzibbur doesn't apply if the tzibbur is OK with it).

But within this, it still means davening 3 times a day etc.

Observance and hashkafa are not synonymous.


Interesting, I've never heard of that. And not to be cynical but there are communities that really do this? Like they learn and daven 3 times a day, follow halacha and are considered LWMO? It sounds... unsustainable almost. Like the next generation won't look like that.
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ccwife




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Oct 13 2021, 1:19 pm
yamaha wrote:
Just wanted to add - there's mesorah in modern Orthodoxy as well, it didn't come out of nowhere. (ex: R' Soloveitchik is a descendant of Brisk, and there's a lot of that influence in his psak and hashkafa.) So the concept didn't originate in Brisk (obviously), but R' Soloveitchik didn't totally pasken on his own.

When we call our rav, if he doesn't know the answer, he looks it up or calls another rav (and up the chain...). But sometimes he'll teach DH more background about it or DH will ask more questions about it, so DH can look it up on his own in the future.


Thanks! This speaks to me lol. But where did LWMO come from then? I highly doubt they had women laining in Brisk.
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simcha2




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Oct 13 2021, 1:27 pm
ccwife wrote:
Interesting, I've never heard of that. And not to be cynical but there are communities that really do this? Like they learn and daven 3 times a day, follow halacha and are considered LWMO? It sounds... unsustainable almost. Like the next generation won't look like that.


Sure. Why is that unsustainable?

I'm sure they think it is the future because it stops those who have trouble reconciling the way women are treated as second class citizens within the confines of orthodoxy.
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ccwife




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Oct 13 2021, 1:37 pm
simcha2 wrote:
Sure. Why is that unsustainable?

I'm sure they think it is the future because it stops those who have trouble reconciling the way women are treated as second class citizens within the confines of orthodoxy.


Im super interested in meeting someone like that.
Like they really really keep halacha? Like their not cutting the cucumbers too small on Shabbos type? I'm having such a hard time wrapping my brain around it.

I don't know why it seems unsustainable to me, I have to think about it. It kind of reminds me of my friends grandparents who are very conservative didn't really pass it on strongly. Not their fault of course but when there's such hypocrisy it's not surprising that most of it fell to the side. This sounds different of course.
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simcha2




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Oct 13 2021, 1:39 pm
ccwife wrote:
Im super interested in meeting someone like that.
Like they really really keep halacha? Like their not cutting the cucumbers too small on Shabbos type? I'm having such a hard time wrapping my brain around it.

I don't know why it seems unsustainable to me, I have to think about it. It kind of reminds me of my friends grandparents who are very conservative didn't really pass it on strongly. Not their fault of course but when there's such hypocrisy it's not surprising that most of it fell to the side. This sounds different of course.


You could contact yct and speak with people the there.
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ccwife




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Oct 13 2021, 1:43 pm
simcha2 wrote:
You could contact yct and speak with people the there.


I thought that's Open Orthodoxy?
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simcha2




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Oct 13 2021, 1:51 pm
ccwife wrote:
I thought that's Open Orthodoxy?


You're right. Sorry, covid brain.
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AlwaysGrateful




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Oct 13 2021, 1:52 pm
ccwife wrote:
I thought that's Open Orthodoxy?


It is. They portray themselves as MO.

I'm sorry, I don't love creating controversy, but I need to say this. I'm somewhat involved with a community that Open Orthodoxy is starting to infiltrate. And I just have to say...NO. This is not orthodoxy. I have friends who are MO who are 100% orthodox, probably know hilchos Shabbos (and many other halachos) much more than I do. But Open Orthodoxy, although they present themselves as a halachic movement, are not.

They are agenda-driven, not halacha-driven. In yeshivish terms, they will find the tiniest "man d'amar" to support a conclusion that they came to before they ever learned up the sugya.

I'm sure people will attack me for being judgemental, but I really feel that this needs to be said. CCwife is trying to learn about MO as a movement. There are some wonderful things about MO. Open Orthodoxy is not MO, simply because it is not orthodox. Period.
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