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amother




OP
 

Post Wed, Oct 13 2021, 10:54 am
This is a question I have always wondered about, so please enlighten me:

Why does everyone say a frum family needs two incomes in order to survive?

If a mother has, let's say, four small children, needs to pay $1000+ a month in childcare, would be in the - let's say - 45% tax bracket, and would need to pay work related costs such as transportation, how does this woman actually make any money? There's no second income here.
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amother




Almond
 

Post Wed, Oct 13 2021, 10:58 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
This is a question I have always wondered about, so please enlighten me:

Why does everyone say a frum family needs two incomes in order to survive?

If a mother has, let's say, four small children, needs to pay $1000+ a month in childcare, would be in the - let's say - 45% tax bracket, and would need to pay work related costs such as transportation, how does this woman actually make any money? There's no second income here.


What 45% tax bracket?
Do tell.

For 2021, if you make over 628k for married filing jointly, your in the 37% tax bracket. If your making 628k, I don't think you need 2 incomes..

Your numbers are way off.
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amother




Magnolia
 

Post Wed, Oct 13 2021, 11:01 am
I work part-time teaching, I pay max $400 for childcare, no tax because my salary goes to my kids' tuition. My annual earnings pays the equivalent of our annual property tax plus a little extra.
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amother




OP
 

Post Wed, Oct 13 2021, 11:01 am
amother [ Almond ] wrote:
What 45% tax bracket?
Do tell.

For 2021, if you make over 628k for married filing jointly, your in the 37% tax bracket. If your making 628k, I don't think you need 2 incomes..

Your numbers are way off.

There is FICA, Medicare, State and in New York city, city tax.

Check your numbers again.

It was a hypothetical bracket, if you want exact numbers I can calculate them for you.
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amother




Maize
 

Post Wed, Oct 13 2021, 11:02 am
Because at a certain point you have to send your kids to school and pay tuition even if you're a stay at home mommy.
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chocolatecake




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Oct 13 2021, 11:19 am
amother [ Maize ] wrote:
Because at a certain point you have to send your kids to school and pay tuition even if you're a stay at home mommy.


YES!!! You can 100 percent break it down where for certain people its literally not worth to work because of all the childcare and related costs. However, once tuition comes around the money has got to come from somewhere...
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amother




OP
 

Post Wed, Oct 13 2021, 11:21 am
amother [ Maize ] wrote:
Because at a certain point you have to send your kids to school and pay tuition even if you're a stay at home mommy.

But if you're coming home with, let's say - $800 a month after childcare costs and taxes, etc, that's maybe the cost of one tuition. Or one and a half if the school is nice. I mean, that's nice, but that's hardly a second income.

Many of us in the frum world generally have both small children and school age children at the same time.

ETA: It's the phrase "second income" that I have issue with. A mother with small children and in a higher tax bracket is NOT bringing home a second income. It's pin money, unless she has a VERY high paying job.
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keym




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Oct 13 2021, 11:24 am
Because of these 4, at least 1 or 2 need to go to school.
And even if we're talking Lakewood or Chassidishe tuition, were still talking $400/$500 apiece per kid.
And it only gets up
At least to be able to cover tuition.
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amother




OP
 

Post Wed, Oct 13 2021, 11:31 am
I just added it up for New Jersey. It's 36% for income over $80,000 or so, and 38% if the income is over $170,000.

If she has a part time job, it's (usually) part time money. If she has a full time job, her childcare related costs are much higher (think, after school care, in between school and camp care, camp because she's not home to make a mommy camp during the summer, etc...).
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amother




Saddlebrown
 

Post Wed, Oct 13 2021, 11:35 am
Obviously it’s only worth it if your after tax income is more than that of a babysitter.
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amother




Mayflower
 

Post Wed, Oct 13 2021, 11:38 am
If you're so wealthy that an extra $10,000 a year in your pocket is meaningless, perhaps you'd like to spread the joy.

But I make a whole lot more than that.

Seriously. Stop with the judging. I've met SAHMs who don't have a clue what their kids are up to. I've met SAHMs who are wonderful parents. I've met WOHMs who are barely involved with their kids. I've met WOHMs who are amazing involved parents.

Its none of your business.
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amother




Hosta
 

Post Wed, Oct 13 2021, 11:38 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
But if you're coming home with, let's say - $800 a month after childcare costs and taxes, etc, that's maybe the cost of one tuition. Or one and a half if the school is nice. I mean, that's nice, but that's hardly a second income.

Many of us in the frum world generally have both small children and school age children at the same time.

ETA: It's the phrase "second income" that I have issue with. A mother with small children and in a higher tax bracket is NOT bringing home a second income. It's pin money, unless she has a VERY high paying job.

My paycheck covers childcare(playgroup) and one child’s tuition. I also get health insurance and other benefits through my employer , so that also comes out pretax out of my paycheck. My meager paycheck covers monthly credit card payments that I’m paying off, to get us out of debt. So technically , I don’t get to use the money I earn since it goes directly to these specific expenses and to maaser . But this little bit takes a load off my DHs shoulders . I also see it as a future investment. I’m paying off my credit card debt very slowly , but without my income we would be going into more CC debt since DH was paying tuitions with the CC.
In a few years I won’t have cc debt. The kids will be out of school and I won’t be paying tuition, but I’ll have experience and seniority at a job and will be able to put some money away into savings or for extras at that point. I took off of work for 16 months after my daughter was born. I tried it. I was much poorer then and it was a huge struggle. Every tiny bit counts. Sometimes I have $100-$200 to put away and save for when the yomim tovim come around I’m able to foot the bills for new shoes , more food etc.
Everyone needs to do what works for them. My DH would probably prefer that I earned more than I do, but at least I know I contribute a little bit and that helps somewhat.
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amother




Sienna
 

Post Wed, Oct 13 2021, 11:40 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
But if you're coming home with, let's say - $800 a month after childcare costs and taxes, etc, that's maybe the cost of one tuition. Or one and a half if the school is nice. I mean, that's nice, but that's hardly a second income.

Many of us in the frum world generally have both small children and school age children at the same time.

ETA: It's the phrase "second income" that I have issue with. A mother with small children and in a higher tax bracket is NOT bringing home a second income. It's pin money, unless she has a VERY high paying job.


Isn’t $800 a lot?

I mean that could be 1 1/2 kids tuitions.
Or 2 weeks of food.
Cover dr copays and deductibles.

That is $9600 a year after all expenses.

And you keep up your skills so when your youngest is 4 and have to go to school your earning potential is better.
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amother




Magenta
 

Post Wed, Oct 13 2021, 11:41 am
Getting off the career train has major costs as well! My job BH pays more than my childcare costs, plus I have amazing benefits.
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amother




Saddlebrown
 

Post Wed, Oct 13 2021, 11:43 am
amother [ Hosta ] wrote:
My paycheck covers childcare(playgroup) and one child’s tuition. I also get health insurance and other benefits through my employer , so that also comes out pretax out of my paycheck. My meager paycheck covers monthly credit card payments that I’m paying off, to get us out of debt. So technically , I don’t get to use the money I earn since it goes directly to these specific expenses and to maaser . But this little bit takes a load off my DHs shoulders . I also see it as a future investment. I’m paying off my credit card debt very slowly , but without my income we would be going into more CC debt since DH was paying tuitions with the CC.
In a few years I won’t have cc debt. The kids will be out of school and I won’t be paying tuition, but I’ll have experience and seniority at a job and will be able to put some money away into savings or for extras at that point. I took off of work for 16 months after my daughter was born. I tried it. I was much poorer then and it was a huge struggle. Every tiny bit counts. Sometimes I have $100-$200 to put away and save for when the yomim tovim come around I’m able to foot the bills for new shoes , more food etc.
Everyone needs to do what works for them. My DH would probably prefer that I earned more than I do, but at least I know I contribute a little bit and that helps somewhat.


But you are using the money. You are using it for healthcare and tuition and for things your bought in the past.
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amother




Buttercup
 

Post Wed, Oct 13 2021, 11:44 am
My husband and I earn salaries that are about equal (in the $70k-$80k range each). My income is not secondary, it is half of our household income. We can't just cut it out, no matter how much childcare costs, because we can not survive on half the amount. My salary is actually a bit higher and I have more future earning potential in my field that he has in his, so if we are looking solely at the numbers, it would make more sense for him to quit than for me. Not happening either way and we will both have to keep working for a long time and will manage. That's life!
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amother




OP
 

Post Wed, Oct 13 2021, 11:49 am
amother [ Buttercup ] wrote:
My husband and I earn salaries that are about equal (in the $70k-$80k range each). My income is not secondary, it is half of our household income. We can't just cut it out, no matter how much childcare costs, because we can not survive on half the amount. My salary is actually a bit higher and I have more future earning potential in my field that he has in his, so if we are looking solely at the numbers, it would make more sense for him to quit than for me. Not happening either way and we will both have to keep working for a long time and will manage. That's life!

I am talking about people who's husbands make much more (many do). My husband makes around the same, so I have to work. I also don't have small children so my child care costs are not as much. But I know people are paying over $700 a month per child... in the hypothetical case if you have a child in daycare, two children in playgroup (what are the costs now? Over $400 a month each?) how much money is she really left with.
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amother




Eggshell
 

Post Wed, Oct 13 2021, 11:49 am
Tuition by me is 1500$/m per child
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amother




OP
 

Post Wed, Oct 13 2021, 11:52 am
amother [ Mayflower ] wrote:
If you're so wealthy that an extra $10,000 a year in your pocket is meaningless, perhaps you'd like to spread the joy.

But I make a whole lot more than that.

Seriously. Stop with the judging. I've met SAHMs who don't have a clue what their kids are up to. I've met SAHMs who are wonderful parents. I've met WOHMs who are barely involved with their kids. I've met WOHMs who are amazing involved parents.

Its none of your business.

Some people may decide to cut out some things from their budget instead.

For example, when my children were little, I stopped working for a few years. I kept my two year old home (savings of $400 right there in today's $), got rid of our car (we were paying over $400 a month car insurance), had no cleaning help, wore only hand me downs, ate tuna for supper, and we were renting in a tiny apartment on the outskirts of town. That adds up to more than $1000 a month.

Nobody else has to do what I did, but I'm just explaining why it can be financially feasible to stay home rather than work, when you have very small children. (Whether it's something you want to do is a completely different story, I'm just addressing the financial aspect of it).
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amother




Burntblack
 

Post Wed, Oct 13 2021, 11:53 am
I'm a SAHM and the only way we can afford it is that I brought an extra income worth of investment with me into the marriage. Between family investments and yerusha gelt that we have invested on our own, we can B"H afford for me not to work. And yes I know how lucky I am. I don't know how other women manage it at all.
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