Why Rochel Imeinu?

b.chadash

Sun, Oct 17 2021, 6:55 pm

Today was the yahrtzeit of Rachel Imeinu. And I was thinking about the famous medresh we read about each year.

The medresh in Eicha Rabbasi talks about when the Jews were being led to galus. The Avos and Moshe each approached Hashem and asked that He save the Jews in their merit, and Hashem did not accede to their request.

And then, Rochel "jumps before Hashem" and says that Hashem should redeem her children in HER merit. That she, a person of flesh and blood was able to be mevater to her sister, and surely Hashem who is the Master of the Universe should be able to be mevater to the Jews for serving idols.

Immediately Hashem responded and said "Stop crying, your children will be returned to their land."

This medresh never fails to move me. And yet, I have never fully understood it. What is the rationale that puts Rachel's sacrifice above those of Avrohom, Yitzchok and Yaakov? And Moshe? Each of these individuals were towering figures who also suffered greatly. Why does Hashem only listen to Rachel? What is it about her merit that outweighed all the rest? I have heard different ideas of how great is the midda of vatranus and shtika. But I don't understand why it carries more strength than all the middos shown by the Avos and Moshe.

If you have ever learned something on this or have some original thoughts, I would love to hear.

Last edited by b.chadash on Sun, Oct 17 2021, 8:15 pm; edited 1 time in total

imorethanamother

Sun, Oct 17 2021, 7:42 pm

b.chadash wrote:

Today was the yahrtzeit of Rachel Imeinu. And I was thinking about the famous medresh we read about each year.

The medresh in Eicha Rabbasi talks about when the Jews were being led to galus. The Avos and Moshe each approached Hashem and asked that He save the Jews in their merit, amd Hashem did not accede to their request.

And then, Rochel "jumps before Hashem" and says that Hashem should redeem her children in HER merit. That she, a person of flesh and blood was able to be mevater to her sister, and surely Hashem who is the Master of the Universe should be able to be mevater on the Jews for serving idols.

Immediately Hashem responded and said "Stop crying, your children will be returned to their land."

This medresh never fails to move me. And yet, I have never fully understood it. What is the rationale that puts Rachel's sacrifice above those of Avrohom, Yitzchok and Yaakov? And Moshe? Each of these individuals were towering figures who also suffered greatly. Why does Hashem only listen to Rachel? What is it about her merit that outweighed all the rest? I have heard different ideas of how great is the midda of vatranus and shtika. But I don't understand why it carries more strength than all the middos shown by the Avos and Moshe.

If you have ever learned something on this or have some original thoughts, I would love to hear.

I'm sure you've watched the Rachel videos on AlephBeta? I think those really hammer it home. If you haven't watched it recently, it's worth a million rewatches. https://www.alephbeta.org/play.....tears

I also heard from Esther Wein that what she did was akin to Esther's sacrifice. By giving up her marriage to Yaakov, she had cut herself off from the possibility of being part of klal yisroel's future. She was consigned herself to Eisav. It was fortunate that things worked out, but at the time, she thought she was condemning herself to a life alone or with a very terrible person.

amother

DarkRed

Sun, Oct 17 2021, 7:43 pm

Rachel’s sacrifice was completely private. It was a secret no one knew about. I don’t know the exact details but somehow she managed to tell Leah what to do or say to Yakov without Leah realizing that it was a secret code that had been arranged between her and Yakov. In the story of the dudaim flowers Reuven brought for his mother Leah you can see Leah asked her sister - are you going to take my flowers the way you took my husband? Had Leah known that Rachel gave her the simanim she would never have said that. Rachel lived with her secret every day and never told her sister what a sacrifice she made for her. I don’t remember the source for this but it rang true. I hope you can find a source and let me know.

b.chadash

Sun, Oct 17 2021, 8:02 pm

amother [ DarkRed ] wrote:

Yes I heard this. I heard that during the seven years that Yaakov waited for Rachel, he sent her many gifts and Rachel always passed them on to Leah, as if they were meant for her. So Leah truly wasn't aware that Yaakov was betrothed to Rachel.

The problem I have with that line of reasoning is, firstly, that Einei Leah Racos- her eyes were soft from excessive crying because she knew she was destined for Eisav. At what point did she come to believe that suddenly Yaakov was betrothed to her?

Second, according to the medresh, the night of the wedding, Rachel hid under the bed and when Yaakov spoke to Leah, she remained silent and Rachel spoke in her place. The only way this could work is if Leah was in on it too. So it seems to me that Leah must have known that Yaakov worked seven years for Rachel and not her.

However it seems that once they were married, no one expected that Yaakov would take Rachel as well. And that's why Leah felt that Rachel was taking her husband. And the gadlus of Rachel was that she always acted the part of the second wife, subservient to the "main" wife. She was so good at this act that even Leah believed it, otherwise how could she have said "would you take my son's dudaim like you took my husband?"

Still. I'm not satisfied that this answers my question of why her sacrifice- great as it was- outweighs the merits of the Avos and Moshe .

b.chadash

Sun, Oct 17 2021, 8:05 pm

imorethanamother wrote:

I have watched the video from Aleph Beta, several years ago and unfortunately I don't remember the gist of it (though I do remember the pictures.) Thanks for reminding me of it, I will watch it again tomorrow.

imorethanamother

Sun, Oct 17 2021, 8:09 pm

b.chadash wrote:

The problem I have with that line of reasoning is, firstly, that Einei Leah Racos- her eyes were soft from excessive crying because she knew she was destined for Eisav. At what point did she come to believe that suddenly Yaakov was betrothed to her?

Second, according to the medresh, the night of the wedding, Rachel hid under the bed and when Yaakov spoke to Leah, she remained silent and Rachel spoke in her place. The only way this could work is if Leah was in on it too. So it seems to me that Leah must have known that Yaakov worked seven years for Rachel and not her.

The videos are clear that chazal act as IF she had given these simanim under the bed, but it didn't happen that way the first time.

b.chadash wrote:

However it seems that once they were married, no one expected that Yaakov would take Rachel as well. And that's why Leah felt that Rachel was taking her husband. And the gadlus of Rachel was that she always acted the part of the second wife, subservient to the "main" wife. She was so good at this act that even Leah believed it, otherwise how could she have said "would you take my son's dudaim like you took my husband?"

Still. I'm not satisfied that this answers my question of why her sacrifice- great as it was- outweighs the merits of the Avos and Moshe .

Who says it has to outweigh it? By Rosh Hashana, we mention akeidas Yitzchak because it definitely trumps in terms of greatness and sacrifice.

But what Rochel did was the right counterargument to Hashem's defense. Namely, "how could I not send them to exile and destroy them for what they have done? They have worshipped idols before Me."

When Moshe was faced with this conundrum, he broke the luchos. Avraham sent away Sarah's rival to die in the desert with her son. The Avos may have had more merits, but not necessarily the one that could calm that particular wrath. Like we say, "Kamayim, hapanim el panim." Hashem will respond to you the way you behave.

b.chadash

Sun, Oct 17 2021, 8:18 pm

imorethanamother wrote:

Thank you! This is a very good answer that satisfies my question.

What did you mean by saying that Chazal say it was as if she had given the simanim under the bed but it didn't happen ?

imorethanamother

Sun, Oct 17 2021, 9:30 pm

b.chadash wrote:

Thank you! This is a very good answer that satisfies my question.

What did you mean by saying that Chazal say it was as if she had given the simanim under the bed but it didn't happen ?

The video will explain. It's an interesting interpretation.

And thank you. As a counterquestion, MY question was always how come we don't mention the merits of Miriam when we daven for rain on Shemini Atzeres.

etky

Sun, Oct 17 2021, 11:07 pm

imorethanamother wrote:

Do you mean באר מרים?
Maybe cause it's not in the text itself like all the other examples in the tefilla.
OTOH there certainly is enough connection between Miriam and water that IS in the text, namely her tracking the teivah on the river to see what happened with her brother and the singing and dancing of the women after קריעת ים סוף that she led.
I guess the reason is that she simply isn't considered on the same level as the Avot and Moshe and Aharon. Or maybe there was reluctance to include a woman in the tefilla because it might resonate ideas from Xianity.

Aylat

Sun, Oct 17 2021, 11:32 pm

imorethanamother wrote:

I never thought of this question, but it seems to me that rain and a well are two different concepts, different mechanisms of receiving water. We don't just pray for water, we daven for rain that falls from heaven.

Actually now I'm thinking about it, it fits that Miriam, as female, brought a well, which is the receptacle of bounty from above.

etky

Sun, Oct 17 2021, 11:42 pm

Aylat wrote:

But wells are explicitly mentioned in the verses having to do with Yitzhak (digging wells) and Ya'acov (removing the rock from the well opening) and the entire piyut talks about all kinds of different forms of water: bodies of water (rivers, seas), water used for ceremonial purposes, water as a metaphor for character traits etc. It's water rather than rain per se that is the main image in the prayer.

Aylat

Mon, Oct 18 2021, 12:00 am

etky wrote:

OK, so my suggestion is no good and you have an excellent question. (I'm embarrassed at my ignorance, it's been a while since I was in shul for תפילת גשם.)

etky

Mon, Oct 18 2021, 12:11 am

Aylat wrote:

OK, so my suggestion is no good and you have an excellent question. (I'm embarrassed at my ignorance, it's been a while since I was in shul for תפילת גשם.)

It was imorethanmother's question Wink

and it is an excellent question.
I have to admit it never occurred to me to question why Miriam isn't included in the prayer despite the very strong tradition connecting her to water and despite the fact that she too was a prophetess.

imorethanamother

Mon, Oct 18 2021, 6:19 am

etky wrote:

It was imorethanmother's question Wink

It bothers me tremendously that we seem to mention every single male in tanach over Succos, whether it’s the ushpizin, whether it comes to tefilah for rain or on hoshana rabba and we pray for mercy in the merit of…

I think it bothers me because the implication is that women in tanach never reached a high level and their merit is negligible. What does that say for us and our potential?

Sometimes I just want to believe that the men who composed prayer never considered women to be all that powerful, but we secretly are. It’s the only thing that helps ease the sadness, although it feels heretical.

etky

Mon, Oct 18 2021, 6:41 am

imorethanamother wrote:

I get you.
OTOH, the haftarot of Rosh Hashana are all about women and their merit: Hanna on the the first day - from whom the halachot of tefilla were codified, and Rachel, at the center of Yirmiyahu's nevuah on the second day, with (according to the midrash) her rachamim on her sister on account of which Hashem agreed to have rachamim on us and to restore us to the Land.
Also, I really love the Hoshana אום נצורה that we say on Shabbat of Succot. It is written in the feminine because the subject is כנסת ישראל not because it is depicting a woman keeping the shabbat, but still I enjoy reciting it. I kind of get a feeling that the paytan may have had some righteous woman in mind after all when he composed the piyut.

Queen Of Hearts

Tue, Oct 24 2023, 8:49 pm

Op, I always had the same question. I would imagine Avraham who was ready to sacrifice his beloved son Yitzchok through his own hands only because Hashem said so. Or Yitzchok who was ready to lose his life also because Hashem commanded it would be so much greater than Rochel who gave up marrying the man she desired.
And if you think about Rochel giving up her chance to be part of klal Yisroel, Yitzchok, if he would have been sacrificed, there would be no klal Yisroel at all.

thegiver

Tue, Oct 24 2023, 9:02 pm

Then Rachel lifted her voice. “Master of the Universe, You know that Jacob loved me intensely, and worked for seven years in order to marry me. When the time of my marriage came, my father substituted my sister for me. I did not begrudge my sister, and I didn’t let her be shamed; I even revealed to her the secret signs that Jacob and I had arranged.

“If I, a mere mortal, was not prepared to humiliate my sister and was willing to take a rival into my home, how could You, the eternal, compassionate G‑d, be jealous of idols, which have no true existence, that were brought into Your home? Will You cause my children to be exiled on this account?”

Immediately, G‑d’s mercy was aroused and He responded, “For you, Rachel, I will bring Israel back to their place.”5