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Whats international law if parents die. So upset Biran case
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amother




OP
 

Post Sun, Oct 31 2021, 6:48 pm
So upset at Israel ruling. How dare she, judged to return the kid to Italy. Since when does an aunt have precedent over grandparents? What's international law say if something like this happened, where a kid born in one country but grew up in another cuz his parent was in school there, who gets custody? And in general whats the international law- who gets custody preference, grandparent or aunt/uncle?
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Hashem_Yaazor




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Oct 31 2021, 7:16 pm
A will would have prevented this battle. Then it's clear what the parents' wishes were.

I think in this case it had to do with culture and language being familiar to him in Italy and not aunt vs grandparents.
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SixOfWands




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Oct 31 2021, 7:20 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
So upset at Israel ruling. How dare she, judged to return the kid to Italy. Since when does an aunt have precedent over grandparents? What's international law say if something like this happened, where a kid born in one country but grew up in another cuz his parent was in school there, who gets custody? And in general whats the international law- who gets custody preference, grandparent or aunt/uncle?


Well, it certainly underscores the absolute necessity of providing clear instructions for custody if, chas v'shalom, something happens. Particularly in this case, where the family was living in one country, and one side of the family said they intended to return to another country, while the other said they didn't.

Absent instructions, the question should always be "best interests of the child." And I'm clueless here as to what that would be. I do know that the grandfather's decision to basically kidnap the child and take him to Israel, instead of going through the Italian courts, was probably not well-taken. Absent irrefutable proof of abuse or corruption, courts just don't like that.
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amother




Garnet
 

Post Sun, Oct 31 2021, 7:42 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
So upset at Israel ruling. How dare she, judged to return the kid to Italy. Since when does an aunt have precedent over grandparents? What's international law say if something like this happened, where a kid born in one country but grew up in another cuz his parent was in school there, who gets custody? And in general whats the international law- who gets custody preference, grandparent or aunt/uncle?

How dare the grandfather kidnap the child.

All the Israeli judge did was say, "You are in the middle of a court case in Italy. Go solve this there. We're not getting involved and we will not endorse or enable kidnapping."

What a chilul Hashem the grandfather made. As much as I hate (as an Israeli) Israel's courts, this time the court did the right thing. (Actually Tel Aviv's family court has impressed me more than once with some of their rulings.)
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Fave




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Oct 31 2021, 7:43 pm
The grandfather shouldn’t have kidnap the boy.
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Einikel




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Oct 31 2021, 7:45 pm
What is this story?
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Lady A




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Oct 31 2021, 7:47 pm
The overriding lesson here is parents, particularly of young children, need to have a will. Even if they don’t think they will ever need it, here is a perfect example. It just alleviates so many issu.
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amother




Magnolia
 

Post Sun, Oct 31 2021, 7:49 pm
Very tragic
Since his parents’ death The aunt in Italy had been sending him to catholic school along with her two daughters.
Poor poor boy poor poor family.
Such a tragedy upon tragedy.
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octopus




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Oct 31 2021, 7:57 pm
The aunt is no tzadekes. She should have made some arrangements to involve grandparents instead of cutting them out (this was before kidnapping). That was my understanding.
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amother




Hydrangea
 

Post Sun, Oct 31 2021, 8:02 pm
octopus wrote:
The aunt is no tzadekes. She should have made some arrangements to involve grandparents instead of cutting them out (this was before kidnapping). That was my understanding.


Aunt in Italy married to a [gentile], sends own kids + this kid to christian place
kid belong with family in isreal where his parents were planning to move to, with moms sister and parents, not with almost christian fathers sister

My sister asked me if I agree to be designated to take care of her kids if something happens to her.
She gave my name and contact and instructions to a lawyer.

The parents who passed would want son with mothers sister, I am sure. and among jews, in isreal, where they are from.
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SixOfWands




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Oct 31 2021, 8:03 pm
Einikel wrote:
What is this story?


Last spring, there was a horrific accident in Italy. A cable car collapsed, killing 14 people, including an Israeli couple living in Italy, their 2 year-old son, and 2 great grandparents visiting from Israel. The sole survivor was their 6 year-old son. An Italian (paternal) aunt was granted custody. The Israeli (maternal) grandparents challenged, claiming that the parents (again, Israeli citizens) were only in Italy for the father to attend medical school, then intended to return and raise their kids in Israel. The maternal grandparents challenged that ruling in Italy. Then during what was supposed to be a few hours visit, the Israeli maternal grandfather took the child to Israel. And Israeli court found he had no right to do that, and that he must be returned. The child had lived in Italy since he was 1, btw, and his primary language is Italian. He is still medically fragile (AIUI) and was hospitalized in Israel.
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amother




OP
 

Post Sun, Oct 31 2021, 9:10 pm
I heard that right after the accident the aunt was already living in Italy, so the grandfather signed something that the aunt would take care of things because he doesn't know the language, she is a doctor and the kids was still in the hospital--is this true?

Let's be honest. All those who are saying he should stay with the aunt. Why? He was born in Israel. The only reason they were in Italy because the father was in medical school because he couldn't get in Israel. Looks like the aunt is married to an Italian. Shouldn't a grandparent always have preference of guardianship over an aunt/uncle? A grandparent is much closer to a grandchild than an aunt/uncle ever will be. And if any of you disagree, I don't think you'll looking at this without bias.

The aunt stands to make an enormous settlement from this case. $$$$

It does look bad that the grandfather kidnapped the kid, but I completely understand him.

But what I really want to know is what does the law say in such a case?
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amother




OP
 

Post Sun, Oct 31 2021, 9:22 pm
Hashem_Yaazor wrote:
A will would have prevented this battle. Then it's clear what the parents' wishes were.

I think in this case it had to do with culture and language being familiar to him in Italy and not aunt vs grandparents.
The only reason they were in Italy was for school not because they intended to live there after graduating.
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Hashem_Yaazor




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Oct 31 2021, 9:29 pm
The problem is that a court can't presume what night have been in the future but rather at present what is the child's best interest.
Of course I don't think that living in Italy and going to a non Jewish school is the preferred location for a little Jewish boy, but the court has to take into account the least amount of upheaval for the boy, which is to keep him where he is for now, unless they have documentation stating his decreased parents would want it another way. In the absence of that, the court ruled that keeping his life as cost to status quo as possible was in his best interest.
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amother




Copper
 

Post Sun, Oct 31 2021, 9:52 pm
FWIW, the parents had enrolled the boy in school prior to the accident so whatever the school was appears to have been the choice of the parents. There is no indication of what kind of school it was.

This is what I read in the newspaper accounts.
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amother




Wine
 

Post Sun, Oct 31 2021, 10:34 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I heard that right after the accident the aunt was already living in Italy, so the grandfather signed something that the aunt would take care of things because he doesn't know the language, she is a doctor and the kids was still in the hospital--is this true?

Let's be honest. All those who are saying he should stay with the aunt. Why? He was born in Israel. The only reason they were in Italy because the father was in medical school because he couldn't get in Israel. Looks like the aunt is married to an Italian. Shouldn't a grandparent always have preference of guardianship over an aunt/uncle? A grandparent is much closer to a grandchild than an aunt/uncle ever will be. And if any of you disagree, I don't think you'll looking at this without bias.

The aunt stands to make an enormous settlement from this case. $$$$

It does look bad that the grandfather kidnapped the kid, but I completely understand him.

But what I really want to know is what does the law say in such a case?


I don't know anything about this story but no, I wouldn't say that grandparents should automatically get custody. Every time DH and I discuss who we would want to have custody of our children if c"v something were to happen to us we debate which of our siblings would give our children the best home life and raise them as we would want them to be raised. Of course we would want our parents to be involved, but it would be hard on retirees to go back to raising school age children with all that entails.
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Einikel




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Oct 31 2021, 10:45 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
Last spring, there was a horrific accident in Italy. A cable car collapsed, killing 14 people, including an Israeli couple living in Italy, their 2 year-old son, and 2 great grandparents visiting from Israel. The sole survivor was their 6 year-old son. An Italian (paternal) aunt was granted custody. The Israeli (maternal) grandparents challenged, claiming that the parents (again, Israeli citizens) were only in Italy for the father to attend medical school, then intended to return and raise their kids in Israel. The maternal grandparents challenged that ruling in Italy. Then during what was supposed to be a few hours visit, the Israeli maternal grandfather took the child to Israel. And Israeli court found he had no right to do that, and that he must be returned. The child had lived in Italy since he was 1, btw, and his primary language is Italian. He is still medically fragile (AIUI) and was hospitalized in Israel.


Thank you. I remember reading about the accident. I wasn’t aware of this custody situation. So sad.
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amother




Magnolia
 

Post Sun, Oct 31 2021, 10:50 pm
Considering his parents planned to move back to Israel and were there only for the Med schooling I would have hoped this would factor considering he has family in Israel.
Yes it is a good takeaway to make a will once one has children.
To be raised as a Jew an Israeli Jew and then attending catholic school is a travesty.
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amother




OP
 

Post Sun, Oct 31 2021, 11:26 pm
amother [ Wine ] wrote:
I don't know anything about this story but no, I wouldn't say that grandparents should automatically get custody. Every time DH and I discuss who we would want to have custody of our children if c"v something were to happen to us we debate which of our siblings would give our children the best home life and raise them as we would want them to be raised. Of course we would want our parents to be involved, but it would be hard on retirees to go back to raising school age children with all that entails.
I'm not talking about those who have elderly parents who wouldn't be able to physically or emotionally. These grandparents are young and will be able to take care of him for a while. If you knew your parents were young and able to care for them, would you still ask your siblings over your parents?
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amother




Snow
 

Post Sun, Oct 31 2021, 11:32 pm
amother [ Wine ] wrote:
I don't know anything about this story but no, I wouldn't say that grandparents should automatically get custody. Every time DH and I discuss who we would want to have custody of our children if c"v something were to happen to us we debate which of our siblings would give our children the best home life and raise them as we would want them to be raised. Of course we would want our parents to be involved, but it would be hard on retirees to go back to raising school age children with all that entails.

As a medical worker who encountered the family when they brought the child to the hospital in Israel (we couldn't treat anything bcz it wasn't an emergency and there was no legal guardian to sign), I can honestly say that just bcz people are biological grandparents it doesn't automatically make them the best choice as guardians.
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