Whats international law if parents die. So upset Biran case

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amother

Brown

Mon, Nov 01 2021, 12:15 am

amother [ Snow ] wrote:

As a medical worker who encountered the family when they brought the child to the hospital in Israel (we couldn't treat anything bcz it wasn't an emergency and there was no legal guardian to sign), I can honestly say that just bcz people are biological grandparents it doesn't automatically make them the best choice as guardians.
המבין יבין

💯
This particular grandfather has a criminal record....

No, my children's grandparents are absolutely not named as guardians. There are many people in line before them.

amother

Babyblue

Mon, Nov 01 2021, 4:53 am

As a Jew, I believe that Jews belong in Israel and it causes me great pain to think of a Jewish child in a Catholic school.

That said, this little boy has lost his entire immediate family. To take him away from everything he's ever known and to put him in a totally foreign environment would be just cruel.

It is a shame his parents didn't write a will. And yes, plenty of people designate their siblings and not their parents as guardians. It makes more sense to send orphans to a young family than to older people, no matter how much the grandparents love the children.

I hope Eitan will come through as well as possible.

amother

Garnet

Mon, Nov 01 2021, 5:00 am

octopus wrote:

The aunt is no tzadekes. She should have made some arrangements to involve grandparents instead of cutting them out (this was before kidnapping). That was my understanding.

The grandfather was duped into signing documents in a language he did not understand, with no interpreter for either English or Hebrew. He was told what he was signing was temporary and it was actually completely signing away, permanently, his right to custody of the child.

The school the parents chose for him was in Israel. They had also looked into buying an apartment through a government program - in Israel.

The bottom line though, is that even though Eitan belongs in Israel, his grandfather had no right to kidnap him.

I hope the Italian court will do the right thing and send Eitan to Israel to live with his family here.

His aunt did not have a good relationship with his parents and did not spend time with Eitan before his parents' death, even though her own daughter was in the same gan as he was. Eitan spent a lot of time in Israel and felt at home with his Israeli family. His parents had planned to move back last year but remained in Italy after the pandemic broke out. Reportedly they were planning to move back this past summer (2021).

amother

Magnolia

Mon, Nov 01 2021, 5:44 am

Thank you garnet you said it best.
So upsetting.
Reminds me lhavdil of kids who were in convents post WWII R”L
They also had adjustment issues those who were familiar with that world and who lost their real parents and didn’t remember their previous lives or even that they were Jews.
But it would have been a nightmare to leave them there.

FranticFrummie

Mon, Nov 01 2021, 9:50 am

When I adopted DD, I was sitting with her on the porch one evening, and it hit me like a ton of bricks.

I AM GOING TO DIE SOME DAY. Maybe not tomorrow, maybe not for 60 years, but it's going to happen. You never know when you'll get hit by a bus.

The next day I made arrangements with her birth mother, that she will have custody if anything happens to me. (DD's dad was too busy drinking to actually be a father.) Birth mom would inherit all of my estate to help pay for DD's future.

B'H I have lived long enough to see her turn 18, so I won't have to worry about things like that. Now DD gets 100% of everything I own when I die.

amother

Mulberry

Mon, Nov 01 2021, 9:54 am

amother [ Garnet ] wrote:

Thank you Garnet for sharing the back story.

Its tragic.
Its a really hard situation and no judgement. I pray and hope what grandfather did out of desperation and chaos post -tragedy does not effect the court outcome.

amother

Mon, Nov 01 2021, 10:07 am

amother [ Snow ] wrote:

I wonder what you saw that made you say that. This was a grandparent under stress after losing his child and grandchildren so whatever he did need to cut him some slack. Obviously if there was abuse involved thats something else but I doubt it. It's not like you saw the aunt taking care of the child to compare.

amother

Mon, Nov 01 2021, 10:09 am

amother [ Brown ] wrote:

💯
This particular grandfather has a criminal ...

haven't seen this on the news. White collar?

amother

Brown

Mon, Nov 01 2021, 10:41 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

haven't seen this on the news. White collar?

He was convicted of domestic violence
https://www.timesofisrael.com/...../amp/

It was in all the articles when this whole saga started.

SixOfWands

Mon, Nov 01 2021, 12:17 pm

amother [ Garnet ] wrote:

Why on earth would anyone represented in Italian courts ("According to the paternal relatives, the maternal family had challenged in Italian courts the custody arrangement that let Eitan live with Biran, who is a doctor with her own children." https://apnews.com/article/eur.....9d25d) sign a document without understanding it.

I was curious as to the aunt's religion, but I hadn't seen it anywhere. I'm curious why her child would be in the same "gan" as Eitan if she wasn't raising her kids Jewish and, according to another poster, sends her kids to Catholic schools.

Moreover, the aunt clearly did allow the grandparents to see the child. The grandfather took him for an arranged visit in Shabbat, at which time he drove the child over the border into Switzerland and onto a private flight to Israel, where they arrived, still on Shabbat.

Honestly, IMNSHO, what is paramount is the child's best interests. Obviously, if he was being raised Jewish, and his parents had a commitment to raise him Jewish, in Israel, that should factor heavily into the decision.

#BestBubby

Mon, Nov 01 2021, 1:28 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

We agree - Let's make a Kiddush!

The parents definitely would want their child raised Jewish and likely prefer Israel.

This is a terrible decision.

amother

Mon, Nov 01 2021, 1:37 pm

Also did anyone ask Eitan what he prefers?

amother

Mon, Nov 01 2021, 1:40 pm

amother [ Brown ] wrote:

He was convicted of domestic violence
https://www.timesofisrael.com/...../amp/

It was in all the articles when this whole saga started.

I wasn't aware. Grandfather is divorced?

amother

Mon, Nov 01 2021, 1:42 pm

Where are his paternal grandparents? Are there any other maternal relatives that would like to adopt him?

SixOfWands

Mon, Nov 01 2021, 1:50 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

We agree - Let's make a Kiddush!

The parents definitely would want their child raised Jewish and likely prefer Israel.

This is a terrible decision.

What makes you think that a family that traveled by car and plane on Shabbat would "raise the child Jewish," even if in Israel?

#BestBubby

Mon, Nov 01 2021, 1:54 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

What makes you think that a family that traveled by car and plane on Shabbat would "raise the child Jewish," even if in Israel?

The child would be raised "Jewish" but not "religious".

Which is far better then being raised Catholic and likely to Intermarry/Shmad, Ch"V.

SixOfWands

Mon, Nov 01 2021, 1:54 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Where are his paternal grandparents? Are there any other maternal relatives that would like to adopt him?

An aunt in Israel, I think.

I hate to be crude, but the courts have to be very careful because he's going to be a very wealthy little boy. As I understand it, certain safety features were disabled or not used, resulting in the fatalities. There will almost certainly be a very substantial recovery. They have to be sure that he's being raised for love, not loot.

amother

Mon, Nov 01 2021, 1:55 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

What makes you think that a family that traveled by car and plane on Shabbat would "raise the child Jewish," even if in Israel?

In Israel he has the chance of marrying Jewish, in Italy how likely will he find a Jewish girl later? It's better to be not frum in Israel than go to Catholic school in Italy. eta, we posted simultaneously.

amother

Mon, Nov 01 2021, 2:01 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

I wonder if thered be a custody fight if there was no settlement money.

iyar

Mon, Nov 01 2021, 2:04 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

We agree - Let's make a Kiddush!

The parents definitely would want their child raised Jewish and likely prefer Israel.

This is a terrible decision.

How do you know what the parents would have wanted? How can you know "definitely"?
Is it possible you're projecting your own thoughts onto people you never knew?
You and I and probably all the Jewish mothers here are heartbroken at the thought of a Jewish neshama raised in a non-Jewish environment but unless we had a close relationship with the parents we don't know what they'd want. It's a terribly sad story but it's not hard to see how the court came to decide the child should remain in Italy.
After everything we've been through over the last century or two Eitan is one of many lost souls. We can only daven that eventually they or their descendants make it back.

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