Whats international law if parents die. So upset Biran case

amother

Garnet

Mon, Nov 01 2021, 2:29 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

Why on earth would anyone represented in Italian courts ("According to the paternal relatives, the maternal family had challenged in Italian courts the custody arrangement that let Eitan live with Biran, who is a doctor with her own children." https://apnews.com/article/eur.....9d25d) sign a document without understanding it.

I was curious as to the aunt's religion, but I hadn't seen it anywhere. I'm curious why her child would be in the same "gan" as Eitan if she wasn't raising her kids Jewish and, according to another poster, sends her kids to Catholic schools.

Moreover, the aunt clearly did allow the grandparents to see the child. The grandfather took him for an arranged visit in Shabbat, at which time he drove the child over the border into Switzerland and onto a private flight to Israel, where they arrived, still on Shabbat.

Honestly, IMNSHO, what is paramount is the child's best interests. Obviously, if he was being raised Jewish, and his parents had a commitment to raise him Jewish, in Israel, that should factor heavily into the decision.

I have done extensive research on this due to my job.

It was supposedly explained to Peleg what the document said. Aya was not the one in charge of having him sign the documents, a lawyer was. I believe whoever had Peleg sign believed things had been properly explained. Since I understand, from the inside, how court translations work, I easily believe that this was an honest mistake, lost in translation. Regardless, it was irresponsible. Regardless, there may not have been what to do - court translators are not people pulled off the streets. Regardless, even if Peleg says English would've been fine, we don't know that it wouldn't have been the same thing. Regardless, in the midst of a pandemic, there may not have been many options. Anyways. Onwards.

Yes Aya is a doctor. The Catholic school is a good private school. The kids were definitely in the same gan together - both sides of the family have emphasized that point. I believe it was a Jewish gan but I have no proof of that ATM.

Aya allowed the grandparents to see Eitan, but only because the courts ordered her to. They were given very strict court-ordered visitation times. Prior to the court's intervention, as far as I understood, Aya did not allow any visitation at all. She was also unusually strict that Eitan be returned exactly on time. I also listened to an interview with her and was not impressed, to say the least. She talks about herself and her daughter and very little about what's good for Eitan.

From the reports I have seen Eitan was jumping for joy at the sight of his grandfather and in seventh heaven when he arrived in Israel. Apparently he, his brother, and mother (not sure about the father, who was a med student) spent several months living with her family at the start of the pandemic, last year.

amother

Mon, Nov 01 2021, 2:56 pm

amother [ Garnet ] wrote:

I can't believe that he knew what he was signing at the time. He would never have signed it. During pandemic, he probably wasn't able to get a lawyer to help him. So horrible. They should ask Eitan what he wants.

Who's her? the aunt? or the mother's father=grandfather?

amother

Forsythia

Mon, Nov 01 2021, 6:50 pm

I knew Eitan and his parents personally. I can say for certain that the choice of school was made by his parents in January. The family lived in Pavia where there is not a Jewish school, and Eitan was already attending a pre-school which was a feeder for the elementary school they chose.

Eitan's father worked as a security guard at a Jewish school in Milan where my children attend, however, he and his wife had decided not to send their children there.

The grandfather was absolutely in the wrong whatever his motives.

amother

Garnet

Mon, Nov 01 2021, 6:55 pm

amother [ Forsythia ] wrote:

Very interesting, thank you for that.

So they were planning on staying in Italy long term?

amother

Blush

Mon, Nov 01 2021, 6:56 pm

I don't live in Italy but in another country with lots of Israeli expats and tons of them see no issue with sending their kids to catholic schools, although there is definitely a preference for non denominational schools. Only a very small minority care about sending their kids to a Jewish school. (and no, its a not a financial thing, the Jewish school is state funded)

Regardless, this child should be raised by whoever will provide a loving home. I would be worried about the father having a domestic violence conviction. Certainly does not sound ideal.

Hopefully Eitan will have a loving childhood whereever he is. And hopefully his aunt will return to Israel (even intermarried Israelis might move back) with him so he is more likely to marry a Jew.

amother

Tue, Nov 02 2021, 12:57 am

amother [ Forsythia ] wrote:

I thought he was in medical school?

amother

Tue, Nov 02 2021, 12:58 am

amother [ Forsythia ] wrote:

Why do you say that about his grandfather?

Milan is an hour away from Pavia, far for a 5 year old to travel twice a day.

amother

Forsythia

Tue, Nov 02 2021, 5:17 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I thought he was in medical school?

He was, but he also worked to support his family.

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Milan is an hour away from Pavia, far for a 5 year old to travel twice a day.

I'm not sure what your point is with this. The family could have chosen to live in Milan if they had wanted to be closer to a Jewish school.

I don't know Aya Biran but I just wanted to post to say that the accusations against her which I have read here and elsewhere on the internet are unfair and untrue.

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Why do you say that about his grandfather?

Because 1) He acted illegally and 2) It is widely understood that when a child goes through something so traumatic, the best course of action is to maintain as much stability and familiarity as possible. Eitan had been living with his parents in Italy and had then be cared for by his aunt. He was undergoing intense physiotherapy and counselling, then he was taken away from all that without warning.

amother

Garnet

Tue, Nov 02 2021, 5:32 pm

amother [ Forsythia ] wrote:

don't know Aya Biran but just wanted to post to say that the accusations against her which have read here and elsewhere on the internet are unfair and untrue.

If you don't know her, how do you know that the accusations are unfair and untrue?

Quote:

Because ... It is widely understood that when a child goes through something so traumatic, the best course of action is to maintain as much stability and familiarity as possible. Eitan had been living with his parents in Italy and had then be cared for by his aunt. He was undergoing intense physiotherapy and counselling, then he was taken away from all that without warning.

This is true but it is also widely accepted that children should be living where and with whoever will be best for them in the long term.

If he feels more at home with his grandparents in Israel, and before the accident knew them well but did not know Aya well, then there is a real question as to where it would be best for him to grow up.

Also remember that Aya did not get along with Eitan's parents, and she also has her own children to care for. It is always in a child's best interests to be cared for by people who love and respect his parents, and can impart that love, respect, and knowledge of who they were, to the child. And, if a child has gone through such trauma, sometimes it is best for the child to live with people who can devote themselves entirely just to that traumatized child, without their own children taking from their time and attention.

At the same time, you are right that irrespective of how Aya ended up his sole guardian, why she is doing it, or whether she is doing a good job, she IS the one he has seen and been taken care of and lived with since the accident. So there is a very good chance that it is better for him to stay put.

I don't know where he belongs. Just that it is complicated and there are benefits and disadvantages to both options.

I'm hoping the Italian court will decide Peleg didn't know what he was signing, cancel all the existing agreements, and shunt the case back to the Israeli court. We'll see.

Amarante

Tue, Nov 02 2021, 5:36 pm

amother [ Garnet ] wrote:

The issue is that the grandfather kidnapped the child and took him out of the jurisdiction that had legal jurisdiction to determine the best interests of the child.

Do you support the rights of a relative to kidnap a child in violation of the law or a custody agreement?

Put aside any kind of emotional idea that somehow the child should be returned to Israel because law is intended to protect people by having objective standards?

How would you feel if the tragedy had occurred in Israel and an American or Italian grandparent had smuggled/kidnapped the child out of Israel?

amother

Garnet

Tue, Nov 02 2021, 5:46 pm

Amarante wrote:

No, and if you read upthread you'll see that I believe the grandfather is in the wrong and am glad that the Tel Aviv court ordered Eitan sent back to Italy.

That doesn't mean I don't hope the Italian court shunts the case BACK to Israel.

And the grandfather should be required to do community service and should be stripped of his passport.

amother

Tue, Nov 02 2021, 6:00 pm

amother [ Forsythia ] wrote:

Someone else said that he was living with his grandparents in Israel at the beginning of the pandemic and only recently had gone back to Italy.

The other part didn't get quoted. I was commenting on the Jewish vs Catholic school. It's possible that if there were a Jewish school where they lived they would not have sent him to the Catholic school.

amother

Tue, Nov 02 2021, 6:08 pm

Amarante wrote:

Do you support the aunt's action of conning the grandfather into signing that guardian letter?

I still say the grandparent should have been the guardians even if in America, over an aunt in Israel.

From my on research it seems that in most places at least in the US if something happens where parents both die, guardianship goes to grandparents first, and only after aunts/uncles. Are there any lawyers here who can confirm?

Amarante

Tue, Nov 02 2021, 6:36 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

You are missing the point of following the law.

No one knows whether the grandfather was conned. He is not an uneducated person and had the ability to hire an Italian lawyer to explain everything. He certainly didn’t lack the intellectual ability to arrange to smuggle a child out of the country. Why is anyone accepting the claims of what is being said. It is for the court to determine and not yentas who are relying on gossip and spin and don’t know the facts.

I don’t pretend to know the facts but I do believe that it is important to preserve international laws against kidnapping because to do otherwise wild mean that person could snatch a child and flee by claiming they had greater rights. There are too many terrible stories of children kidnapped in defiance of custodial agreements and child welfare laws.

There is no most places. A court determines what is in the best interests of the child and will appoint a guardian ad litem to represent the child as well as determine what seemed to be the wishes of the parents in terms of guardianship.

The only thing before he court was whether the Italian court had appropriate jurisdiction ajd thst the grandfather violated international law by kidnapping the child.

amother

Garnet

Tue, Nov 02 2021, 6:52 pm

Amarante wrote:

YES

This is for the courts to sort out. The court needs to decide where Eitan will live, and hopefully, the court will look at all the facts and take all factors into consideration, and make the right choice for Eitan.

We don't have all the facts and guardian ship should certainly not be granted just based on whether a person is a grandparent or an aunt.

Shmuel Peleg should not have kidnapped his grandson and removed him from Italy in violation of the court order. (There was also a block on Eitan leaving Italy. His Italian passport had an exit block on it. Apparently his grandfather drove him over the border into Switzerland, and there they boarded a plane to Israel.)