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Whats international law if parents die. So upset Biran case
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 02 2021, 8:37 pm
Amarante wrote:
You are missing the point of following the law.

No one knows whether the grandfather was conned. He is not an uneducated person and had the ability to hire an Italian lawyer to explain everything. He certainly didn’t lack the intellectual ability to arrange to smuggle a child out of the country. Why is anyone accepting the claims of what is being said. It is for the court to determine and not yentas who are relying on gossip and spin and don’t know the facts.

I don’t pretend to know the facts but I do believe that it is important to preserve international laws against kidnapping because to do otherwise wild mean that person could snatch a child and flee by claiming they had greater rights. There are too many terrible stories of children kidnapped in defiance of custodial agreements and child welfare laws.

There is no most places. A court determines what is in the best interests of the child and will appoint a guardian ad litem to represent the child as well as determine what seemed to be the wishes of the parents in terms of guardianship.

The only thing before he court was whether the Italian court had appropriate jurisdiction ajd thst the grandfather violated international law by kidnapping the child.


He had an Italian attorney, and was in custody proceedings in Italy. I don't know where the whole "he was conned" comes from; can someone cite a source.

I also haven't seen anything about Catholic schooling, and still don't understand how, if the aunt sends her kids to Catholic schools, this child was in school with his cousin. Unless his parents were sending him to Catholic school. Can someone send a source?
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Amarante




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 02 2021, 10:06 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
He had an Italian attorney, and was in custody proceedings in Italy. I don't know where the whole "he was conned" comes from; can someone cite a source.

I also haven't seen anything about Catholic schooling, and still don't understand how, if the aunt sends her kids to Catholic schools, this child was in school with his cousin. Unless his parents were sending him to Catholic school. Can someone send a source?


As far as I know - which is just for newspaper articles, the parents enrolled him in whatever school he was supposed to be attending. I have no idea whether it is Catholic, public or Buddhist but only that it was the school the parents enrolled him in and he would have been starting this semester. His cousins attend that school.

So whatever kind of school it was, it shouldn't be used against the aunt since it appears that she was following the plans of the parents.

As for the grandfather being conned, I would imagine it is based on whatever interviews the grandfathers' side did in order to appear sympathetic since they needed some kind of justification for their kidnapping a child when there were explicit custodial agreements in place by a legitimate court.

He was wily enough to go over the border to catch a private plane so I doubt that he was a babe in the woods who was bamboozled into signing away his "rights".
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Nov 02 2021, 10:22 pm
Amarante wrote:
You are missing the point of following the law.

No one knows whether the grandfather was conned. He is not an uneducated person and had the ability to hire an Italian lawyer to explain everything. He certainly didn’t lack the intellectual ability to arrange to smuggle a child out of the country. Why is anyone accepting the claims of what is being said. It is for the court to determine and not yentas who are relying on gossip and spin and don’t know the facts.

I don’t pretend to know the facts but I do believe that it is important to preserve international laws against kidnapping because to do otherwise wild mean that person could snatch a child and flee by claiming they had greater rights. There are too many terrible stories of children kidnapped in defiance of custodial agreements and child welfare laws.

There is no most places. A court determines what is in the best interests of the child and will appoint a guardian ad litem to represent the child as well as determine what seemed to be the wishes of the parents in terms of guardianship.

The only thing before he court was whether the Italian court had appropriate jurisdiction ajd thst the grandfather violated international law by kidnapping the child.

You're talking about someone who just lost his daughter, son in law, and grandchild, and another grandchild in critical condition, he was probably grieving and in shock and may have agreed to sign without properly investigating and I'm sure he wasn't expecting the aunt's lawyer to trick him into signing something permanent.

A court appoints the guardian however, usually, the grandparent is first in line for guardianship and that is who the court will appoint if there are no other issues. aunt/uncle come later down the line.
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Nov 02 2021, 10:27 pm
I thought the guardian decision had already been made by the court and was permanent, are you saying there was still an ongoing court case in Italy regarding custody at the time he took him to Israel?
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Amarante




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 02 2021, 10:35 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I thought the guardian decision had already been made by the court and was permanent, are you saying there was still an ongoing court case in Italy regarding custody at the time he took him to Israel?


The Israeli judge only made a decision regarding the jurisdiction of the Italian courts. There really could be no other decision by the Israeli court based on well founded principles of comity and international law. To decide otherwise would be to open the floodgate in terms of justifying custodial kidnapping.

The Italian Court did in fact appoint the aunt as the guardian but that decision was being appealed when the grandfather decided to kidnap the child.

So when it returns to Italy, theoretically there could be a successful appeal.

The Israeli decision was pretty explicit in not finding any merit to the grandfather's arguments

The court accepted Ms. Biran’s claim that she was the child’s legal guardian, properly appointed by an Italian court, and it bluntly rejected all of Mr. Peleg’s arguments.

Judge Iris Ilotovich-Segal further accused Mr. Peleg of smuggling the child to Israel in violation of the Hague Convention on abducted minors, and ordered him to pay Ms. Biran’s legal expenses.
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amother
Forsythia


 

Post Wed, Nov 03 2021, 10:48 am
amother [ Garnet ] wrote:
If you don't know her, how do you know that the accusations are unfair and untrue?


I am referring to the accusation that she went against the wishes of Eitan's parents in sending Eitan to a non-Jewish school. I know this to be untrue because I know that Eitan's parents applied for his place at that school in January to start first grade in September. He was already attending the pre-school that served as a feeder.

I don't know where the idea is coming from that Eitan's parents did not get along well with his aunt. I don't think any of us can know that. I don't know it either, but it was certainly not the impression I got from speaking to his dad. It kind of sounds like something invented by people who think Eitan should have been placed with his grandparents in Israel.
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amother
Forsythia


 

Post Wed, Nov 03 2021, 10:51 am
Amarante wrote:
As far as I know - which is just for newspaper articles, the parents enrolled him in whatever school he was supposed to be attending. I have no idea whether it is Catholic, public or Buddhist but only that it was the school the parents enrolled him in and he would have been starting this semester. His cousins attend that school.

So whatever kind of school it was, it shouldn't be used against the aunt since it appears that she was following the plans of the parents.

As for the grandfather being conned, I would imagine it is based on whatever interviews the grandfathers' side did in order to appear sympathetic since they needed some kind of justification for their kidnapping a child when there were explicit custodial agreements in place by a legitimate court.

He was wily enough to go over the border to catch a private plane so I doubt that he was a babe in the woods who was bamboozled into signing away his "rights".


Exactly.
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amother
Forsythia


 

Post Wed, Nov 03 2021, 11:05 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:

The other part didn't get quoted. I was commenting on the Jewish vs Catholic school. It's possible that if there were a Jewish school where they lived they would not have sent him to the Catholic school.


It's possible but irrelevant. They made their choice based on their circumstances at the time the decision had to be made.

If it had been important to the family that their children attend a Jewish school, they could have simply chosen to live in Milan, but apparently this was not a priority for them.
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