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Is it mesiras nefesh if one is fully supported?
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amother




Slategray
 

Post Mon, Nov 22 2021, 10:34 am
amother [ Periwinkle ] wrote:
Nobody in the world can answer the question about mesirus nefesh when it’s not about them.
Only a person himself knows what’s mesirus nefesh for them and only the person themselves knows their full reality.

For me it isn’t mesirus nefesh yo wear a shoulder length wig. For my friend 4 inches past the shoulder is mesirus nefesh.

Nobody can know if a person who is comfortably being supported is still learning with mesirus nefesh.
For example, at the family Shabbos table if his family looks up to and admires his brothers who are successful businessmen then it’s still a mesirus nefesh. Just as an example.


Agree and disagree. I think we're conflating sacrifice and mesiras nefesh. Giving up something is a sacrifice, but that doesn't automatically equate to mesiras nefesh. Mesiras nefesh is an extreme. You can sacrifice something so immensely that it becomes a mesiras nefesh. But giving up family admiration, not having excess funds on hand, or not being able to take a vacation is not mesiras nefesh. Those are just all examples of things you're sacrificing, or giving up, for the sake of Torah.
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amother




Outerspace
 

Post Mon, Nov 22 2021, 12:12 pm
I'm in my late forties now, so I'm coming into this conversation with the perspective of age. And I just have this comment to make: Sometimes in school, we are taught things in a very black and white way. If this is a function of young, inexperienced teachers or dogmatic older teachers or just the way that teens understand things or some other combination, I don't know. But we are presented with ideals, and I think as young people making their way into the world and figuring out adulthood we naturally use what we have learned to make sense of things and try to find our place. But not always do those messages fit so perfectly or are so appropro to our lives. It sounds like I'm demeaning what BY stands for. I'm not. Its just that sometimes these very lofty messages are just guideposts or something to be aware of. They aren't grades that you get if it is or isn't mesiras nefesh. Which is why I think its so beautiful to take on this discussion as young adults and to explore its application in a more meaningful way on an individual level.
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amother




Tan
 

Post Mon, Nov 22 2021, 12:28 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
She's a good friend but she's made comments to me "every couple should go to eretz yisroel for the year its the best thing for their marriage" I just rolled my eyes and changed the subject...

I guess this is coming from a place of jealousy.


There are many couples that go to eretz yisroel for the first year or two (or more) that are not being supported at all. They rent tiny one bedroom apartments, the wives have jobs (many work remotely so they have american pay) and live super simply.

I see later you wrote you stayed in flatbush. Guess what your rent in flatbush was probably way more than a one BR in sanhedria murchevet.

There is a lot of judgement and misinformation on this thread.
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amother




Periwinkle
 

Post Mon, Nov 22 2021, 1:46 pm
amother [ Slategray ] wrote:
Agree and disagree. I think we're conflating sacrifice and mesiras nefesh. Giving up something is a sacrifice, but that doesn't automatically equate to mesiras nefesh. Mesiras nefesh is an extreme. You can sacrifice something so immensely that it becomes a mesiras nefesh. But giving up family admiration, not having excess funds on hand, or not being able to take a vacation is not mesiras nefesh. Those are just all examples of things you're sacrificing, or giving up, for the sake of Torah.

So anything any of us are doing is just to sneeze at. Because it’s a joke compared to the mesirus nefesh they our grandparents had when they had to risk their lives to learn Torah and play dreidels to trick the Greeks.
Their life was on the line, and they still learned.
Maybe only THAT’S mesirus nefesh.
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amother




Yolk
 

Post Mon, Nov 22 2021, 2:37 pm
amother [ Gold ] wrote:
I live in israel. college thru graduate school is less then 4 years + seminary of HS in the USA.

Don't get me wrong - I am incredibly grateful. It allowed me to have saving when I got married, which was my down payment together with our wedding money.

But it was before I got married so I don't consider it support - at least not in the way most people talk about support.

Sure, but in Israel we live in shekels, not in dollars.

Anyone living off dollars here is in a completely different situation which yes usually allows for more luxury. (Dollar is down now, so I bet many of them are hurting, but I mean in general.)

Salaries here are also lower so college thru graduate school might cost less than high school + seminary does for those back in the US, but so what - the Israeli tuition eats a huge chunk of our salaries, probably more than it does for those in the US.
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amother




Quince
 

Post Mon, Nov 22 2021, 5:08 pm
amother [ Fern ] wrote:
Trust me, I know exactly what you are talking about, as many of my good friends here are exactly what you are describing, and since I am in those "circles," many assume the same about me.

That's what my whole point was - no I'm not crazy wealthy, but bH I am comfortable and not being supported. Many people look at those living a kollel lifestyle here and think very black and white - that either its a honeymoon of being supported with no responsibilities, or struggling to put food on your table and never going out to eat.

All I'm trying to say is that there are many of us here who work hard, (just like our friends in America with working husbands do), are not supported, and have a nice life. There is a middle ground.

But that’s ops point. She’s not talking about you.
Again this is not all about you.
There are actually really wealthy people who are like ops friend. Not comfortable but hang around rich people so people assume they’re rich. There is a lot of really affluent Kollel people and that is who op is talking about. She asked opinions on them. Not on your lifestyle or the other poster who lives in a dump in arzei.
I assure you my friends and relatives in arzei and re are like ops. They are really being supported and not just pretending.
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amother




Slategray
 

Post Mon, Nov 22 2021, 6:51 pm
amother [ Periwinkle ] wrote:
So anything any of us are doing is just to sneeze at. Because it’s a joke compared to the mesirus nefesh they our grandparents had when they had to risk their lives to learn Torah and play dreidels to trick the Greeks.
Their life was on the line, and they still learned.
Maybe only THAT’S mesirus nefesh.


That is indeed mesirus nefesh, though there were plenty of other times in our generations when our ancestors were moser nefesh. But just the act of sacrificing something doesn't automatically allude to mesiras nefesh. Mesiras nefesh is for the extreme, not just for smaller sacrifices that we choose to make. Sacrifices, no matter how small, are praiseworthy, but the act of not getting to go on vacations or not having a family's admiration is by no means considered mesiras nefesh.

Labeling every small sacrifice as mesira nefesh belittle the actions of those who were truly moser nefesh.
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amother




Periwinkle
 

Post Mon, Nov 22 2021, 8:09 pm
amother [ Slategray ] wrote:
That is indeed mesirus nefesh, though there were plenty of other times in our generations when our ancestors were moser nefesh. But just the act of sacrificing something doesn't automatically allude to mesiras nefesh. Mesiras nefesh is for the extreme, not just for smaller sacrifices that we choose to make. Sacrifices, no matter how small, are praiseworthy, but the act of not getting to go on vacations or not having a family's admiration is by no means considered mesiras nefesh.

Labeling every small sacrifice as mesira nefesh belittle the actions of those who were truly moser nefesh.

Only Hashem knows what’s mesirus nefesh for every human being.
Why is it important anyways?
To know whose olam Habba will be greater?
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