Is it mesiras nefesh if one is fully supported?

amother

Stoneblue

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 2:37 pm

I agree with you, OP, that this is not what I would call mesirut nefesh. Is it a sacrifice? A very mild one. Her dh could join the family biz and make a fortune, while as long as he's learning they enjoy a very comfortable, but not obscenely rich, existence. No, it's not mesirut nefesh in my book. But neither is it any of your business or mine. Good for you for biting your tongue.

FranticFrummie

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 2:39 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I have a bad habit of comparing myself to my friends in kollel who are making it work while both dh and I struggle each month.

A man came to his rabbi, with a downcast face. "Reb Feivel, what's wrong?" cried Rabbi Shtender. Reb Feivel sighed and said "There is a new merchant who just moved in down the street, and he's doing really good business, while I always have the same amount of customers. No matter how hard I try, I just can't get any new people to buy from me!"

Rabbi Shtender said "Reb Feivel, sit down! Let me get you some tea! You must be exhausted!"

Reb Feivel said "Exhausted, why so?" and Rabbi Shtender said "Well, you're doing all the bookkeeping for two stores at once!"

Moral of the story: Mind your own bookkeeping. You'll be much happier.

amother

Scarlet

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 2:41 pm

Surprised at all the judgement here. Are there rules for when it's okay to be judgemental and when we're not supposed to be judgey? Maybe if I'm feeling jealous being judgemental is okay but if the other person is wearing something from ten years ago I wouldn't be caught dead it then it's not okay? How are we all measuring MN levels and where did we get our yardsticks?

amother

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 2:45 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

I love this thanks!

amother

Rainbow

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 2:45 pm

Torah and greatness in one place.

You really never know ppls personal circumstances

I grew up with a girl whom I felt had torah ugedulah bemakom echad. That was the thought that came to mind.
The parents were gracious, torahdik, tzniusdik. Father was a maggid shiur and machshiv talmidei chachamim while part of a very successful family business (think real estate/ nursing homes). Mother was a sweet tzenuah, generously involved in many chassadim and tzedakos.
children had whatever they ever wanted. Would order designer frum clothing, etc.

Fast-forward a little over about 10-20 years
The girl is divorced, has mental health issues that came out as a teen, and one of the parents passed away
Not everything is always so rosey

amother

Gold

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 2:46 pm

Look when it comes to tzedaka torah says we look at the lifestyle the person is coming from and support him on that level.
I think it follows that sacrifice for each individual is from the world they are coming from. He is probably sacrificing prestige in the family business, sees family members who are not just living a comfortable upper class lifestyle but are mega wealthy - which means they get a LOT of kavod, have influence in the community, can make a real difference with tzedaka dollars. I honestly get the allure - I dream of having enough money to start organizations, influence the course of existing ones, help people who I feel deserve it.
I also know many people who feel like they have no independence when finances are completely controlled by someone else. There is also an anxiety when your financial security is dependent on someone else's whims. Sure they have a nice income from the house and know mortgages but what if the perks stop on a whim (happens a lot) it can be scarey to live a fancy lifestyle when you aren't the one earning it.
Besides learning torah is HARD. I see what my husband puts in and it is much harder then anything I did in college, or at work.

Signed dirt poor hard working 2 jobs kollel wife who didn't get a day of support

amother

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 2:48 pm

Thank you everyone for your thoughts.
Putting my friend aside, most of my close friends went to sanhedria murchevet for the year, we were the intowners that moved to flatbush LOL

how will this system last our children's generation?

octopus

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 2:49 pm

Op probably wouldn't have judged except the friend brings up all the mesirus nefesh she does. Look, maybe on some level it is MN for the friend. But who talks like this? It must be so annoying for op to listen to! I wouldn't be comfortable listening to this friend. And knowing me I would distance myself.

Reality

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 2:49 pm

amother [ Scarlet ] wrote:

You have it backwards. OP is reacting to her friend's behavior. If OP's wealthy friend wouldn't make these unfeeling hurtful comments to OP, she wouldn't be judging her.

amother

Marigold

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 2:49 pm

I was in this situation and I would like to say yes. Not as big MN a someone living on bread and water for Torah, but I we have lost the years DH could’ve started Working or went for a degree. Now he’s out of Kollel for three years and still doesn’t know what he want to do with his life….

Bnei Berak 10

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 2:50 pm

Everyone has hardships. No one lives the perfect live without any ups and downs. Some people have lots of money or are being supported. Some are dirt poor.
Everyone have their own nisionot in life and it's custom made based on who you are and what plan Hashem has for you. People with money will have their own set of problems that poor people will have a hard time to understand and vice versa.

Last edited by Bnei Berak 10 on Sun, Nov 21 2021, 2:55 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Lightyellow

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 2:51 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Our other friend was telling me how this is true mesiras nefesh for torah because her husband has the option to go and join his family business (real estate), but instead he chooses to sit and learn.

I didn't say anything because I dont really share my thoughts outloud when I know it will upset someone, but I was discussing it with my husband after. And I really dont think its mesiras nefesh at all. If someone is fully supported, has minimal expenses (groceries, phone bill), its not really living a kollel lifestyle or sacrificing for torah.

If he is really learning when he could be in the family business then yes it is mesirus nefesh on his part. I come from a very Yeshivish family where most of men in my family is/was learning . Every single one of those who went to work afterward says that learning with hasmada is much harder than working .

Say you have someone who managed to retire on an unexpected generous pension. He forgoes relaxing in his golden years and spends his entire time learning. He does not e.g. take off three days of learning because he had a new grandchild. Can anyone say he isn't being moser nefesh for learning because it involves no financial struggles on his part?

amother

Gold

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 2:55 pm

Also can I recommend you find friends in the same financial bracket?

It makes my life much easier.

Stop comparing

And stop feeling less then because learning didn't work out for you. If you are truly struggling while both working then hashem didn't want that for you. Invest in being the biggest ovedes hashem that you can be. Push yourself to let dh go to a shiur if thats what he wants, learn mussar or machshava together, create a torah focused home.
That's your mesiras nefesh. Hashem compares you to you and her to her, try doing thatand you will be much happier

amother

Lightcoral

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 2:56 pm

amother [ Scarlet ] wrote:

We are measuring MN levels by using our brains and our common sense. You can do it too. I give my older daughters morah massive credit for coming in from Lakewook to Bklyn in a snowstorm because she doesn't want to miss a day. My younger daughters morah who lives down the block from the school also comes in but I recognize that the first morah had far more MN.

We don't have to go around announcing who gets more credit for this or that. But we can also use our seichel to realize who are the true MN families.

amother

Tulip

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 2:57 pm

Mesiras nefesh? Definitely not. Does anyone here even know what the translation of that is??
As far as sacrificing, show me one person who would prefer to go to work than to go learn... My husband dreams of the day he could go back to learning and leave all the stresses of work for someone else.

amother

Gardenia

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 2:59 pm

amother [ White ] wrote:

Why not?

In short, torah ugdula means living a true torah lifestyle even if one is rich. It's hard to describe how it's applicable now days because not many are on that level.