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Is it mesiras nefesh if one is fully supported?
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amother
Gold


 

Post Sun, Nov 21 2021, 1:19 pm
you do realize that once you start the comparing game it never ends

I don't get financial support but my parents live here in israel and give me tons of physical and emotional support. My neighbor gets full support but lives far away and has emotionally abusive and controlling parents who use the money to meddle in her life. Who is being more moser nefesh?
What about the friend with full support but deals with intense depression alone far away from a supportive loving family in the states? What about the girl who grew up in the lap of luxury being given partial minimal support from her uber wealthy parents and now needs to count every shekel and live a lifestyle unimaginable a few years earlier - who is being more moser nefesh?

Hashem compares you to you. What did you do with the package he gave you in this world. Comparing yourself to others is the quickest way to become miserable
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Reality




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 21 2021, 1:25 pm
amother [ Gold ] wrote:
Sure

I know people like this to. I think they are being moser nefesh in thier own way. I can't imagine being finacially dependent on someone else. And I am happy for them. What a great way to spend money - to support people learning.

As for how sustainable it is - either there is enough money for the next generation, or their isn't and the next generation will struggle or work.

What this really is about is jealousy. And it is hard not to be jealous when EVERYONE has something that you want. Its easier when most people are like you and their are a few wealthy people that everyone knows are different.


I wish posters would stop saying this is jealousy. It's not. It's resenting being around people who act like they are so holy and sacrificing when they have no idea what it means to sacrifice yourself for a higher ideal. It is resenting being looked down upon by those same people with their little digs and offhand unthinking comments.

I for one am not jealous of people who are being supported. Kol hakovod. But I have no patience to listen to their high and mighty talk about sacrificing for torah and simultaneously living an extravagant lifestyle.
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amother
Ghostwhite


 

Post Sun, Nov 21 2021, 1:57 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I wanted to put this in interesting discussions but that forum doesnt allow for anonymous posting.

I'm 24, married 2 years with a small baby. My friend is 25, with 3 babies and married 5 years. Her husband is still in learning. She married one of the wealthiest guys from our community. She was telling me that her husband's grandfather bought them a two family house. They live in one apartment, rent free, and the other apartment they (my friend) rents out to another couple and they get to keep the rent. She works as a secretary 9-3. Her babies go to a legal daycare which she gets vouchers for so she pays 450$ a month for all 3

Our other friend was telling me how this is true mesiras nefesh for torah because her husband has the option to go and join his family business (real estate), but instead he chooses to sit and learn.

I didn't say anything because I dont really share my thoughts outloud when I know it will upset someone, but I was discussing it with my husband after. And I really dont think its mesiras nefesh at all. If someone is fully supported, has minimal expenses (groceries, phone bill), its not really living a kollel lifestyle or sacrificing for torah.

Is my thought process flawed? Am I just jealous that my husband isnt in yeshiva atm?

I wanted to discuss this, respectfully, and see what other wiser women have to say.


I'm just curios, how does this impact your life?
we all have our own special mission from Hashem
we need to be the best we can be, and serve Him in the best way we can given- our personality, our spouses, our children, our financial situation- what does this have to do with you?
we need to stay in our lane....
maybe for them being in Kollel is moser nefesh, as he could be vastly wealthy and they could be flying off to cancun every other week, and own multiple vacation homes and live a high end lifestyle- given his oppurtunities for investment/real estate that most of us don't have.
or maybe this is not hard for them at all- and maybe they have other challenges or missions that they need to work on.
who knows? only Hashem. I don't think it's beneficial or helpful to ruminate on it.
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amother
Ghostwhite


 

Post Sun, Nov 21 2021, 2:05 pm
Reality wrote:
I personally wouldn't call that mesiras nefesh. All of their wants and needs are taken care of. What exactly are they giving up for torah? When the time comes he'll go into the family business.

But you shouldn't dwell on it. No good will come of it.

If they are constantly making comments about their mesiras nefesh I'd distance myself from them. Just because it would get annoying after awhile.
]

maybe for him it would be easier to be in the business and be INDEPEDANTLY wealthy and not have to rely on handouts.
maybe it's hard for him to sit and learn all day (it's not easy, personally I would be able to handle about fifteen minutes a day!) but he does it anyway as he feels like he's keeping the world going.
bottom line is WE HAVE NO IDEA!! (and no, my husband is not in kollel, this is not a plug for kollel)
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amother
Quince


 

Post Sun, Nov 21 2021, 2:06 pm
amother [ Ghostwhite ] wrote:
I'm just curios, how does this impact your life?
we all have our own special mission from Hashem
we need to be the best we can be, and serve Him in the best way we can given- our personality, our spouses, our children, our financial situation- what does this have to do with you?
we need to stay in our lane....
maybe for them being in Kollel is moser nefesh, as he could be vastly wealthy and they could be flying off to cancun every other week, and own multiple vacation homes and live a high end lifestyle- given his oppurtunities for investment/real estate that most of us don't have.
or maybe this is not hard for them at all- and maybe they have other challenges or missions that they need to work on.
who knows? only Hashem. I don't think it's beneficial or helpful to ruminate on it.

What’s your problem? She’s just pointing out a question. If you don’t like the topic then stay out of it, don’t knock the op.
You are obviously clueless. I live in this world. They are no worse off them their siblings who work. The support is the same. It’s an age thing, as you get older your status and house goes up. No difference if your in Kollel or family business. Your stipend and trust fund is the same.
If you have no idea about this lifestyle then comment on one that you know about. Please don’t confuse people with observations that make no sense
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amother
Quince


 

Post Sun, Nov 21 2021, 2:09 pm
amother [ Ghostwhite ] wrote:
]

maybe for him it would be easier to be in the business and be INDEPEDANTLY wealthy and not have to rely on handouts.
maybe it's hard for him to sit and learn all day (it's not easy, personally I would be able to handle about fifteen minutes a day!) but he does it anyway as he feels like he's keeping the world going.
bottom line is WE HAVE NO IDEA!! (and no, my husband is not in kollel, this is not a plug for kollel)

Actually it’s you that have no idea.
None of the people op is referring to are independently wealthy. The business is the family business. Even if you go out on your own, the seed money is from the family money.
The lifestyle has no changes wether the husband is in Kollel or in the family business. It’s just what he likes doing at the moment.
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amother
Cerulean


 

Post Sun, Nov 21 2021, 2:23 pm
Money is not the only thing determines mesiras nefesh.
Staying in learning or not is not just a matter of money.
(Coming from a father who is in kollel to this day. His view is: Hashem allocated how much money I’m going to get either way, I may as well enjoy my life and learn. He also always told me that some ppl are not cut out for learning bec it takes a unique character to be happy not out there in the world doing. Further point, bh we were definitely not penniless and I grew up on a high standard)

Maybe the family are constantly nudging to leave kollel
Maybe they are the nebach simple ones compared to the family-that is hard, even if relative
Maybe they don’t have as much money as you think

Lots of maybes bec you just don’t know

Personally my husband comes from a well off family and had the full option to be supported in learning for life, in a nice bechovod way. He chose not to after 4 years bec it’s not so easy to be a man and be taking money from someone else.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 21 2021, 2:40 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
She's a good friend but she's made comments to me "every couple should go to eretz yisroel for the year its the best thing for their marriage" I just rolled my eyes and changed the subject...

It's above our pay grade to evaluate the degree of mesiras nefesh involved, but it sounds like your friend is just a bit immature. Honestly, most of us are a little immature at that age. We think we know a great deal, and some of us are happy to share our knowledge.

Keep in mind that people are messy and complex. They may be lacking in perspective in some areas but be more sensitive in others. I remember a frum coworker who once said proudly that he and his wife had taken money from their wedding gifts and spent a year in Eretz Yisroel learning. I dryly responded that since DH and I got a total of $600, it wouldn't have take us far.

Reb Coworker was shocked. He struggled financially, as did most of his family, but he simply couldn't imagine anyone who didn't have a huge extended family whose gifts would add up to thousands of dollars. He kept questionning me about it until finally another coworker shut him down.

So, yes, your friend is making strident statements without sensitivity or nuance, but she's also probably facing problems you'll never face.

Another family with whom we were acquainted when DH was in kollel were a bit older than we were. The husband had been learning for a number of years, and since he was from a very wealthy family, they lived simply but without any serious worries.

One day the husband simply didn't show up in the beis medrash. Turned out he'd received a call the night before that his grandfather could no longer do his job in the family business, and the yungerman was told to come home. He left on the next plane, and over the following week, his wife packed up by herself and moved the entire family. Anyone who had envied this couple's good fortune felt a bit sobered by the sudden upheaval they faced.

The best thing you can do when your friend is clueless or insensitive is what all of us do with clueless or insensitive friends: change the subject and love them for their good qualities.
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amother
OP


 

Post Sun, Nov 21 2021, 2:48 pm
amother [ Ghostwhite ] wrote:
I'm just curios, how does this impact your life?
we all have our own special mission from Hashem
we need to be the best we can be, and serve Him in the best way we can given- our personality, our spouses, our children, our financial situation- what does this have to do with you?
we need to stay in our lane....
maybe for them being in Kollel is moser nefesh, as he could be vastly wealthy and they could be flying off to cancun every other week, and own multiple vacation homes and live a high end lifestyle- given his oppurtunities for investment/real estate that most of us don't have.
or maybe this is not hard for them at all- and maybe they have other challenges or missions that they need to work on.
who knows? only Hashem. I don't think it's beneficial or helpful to ruminate on it.


No need to be holier than thou.

This sparked a discussion with DH and I thought it would be nice to have a respectful discussion with wiser women on this website who can help explain some of the nuances of the yeshivish world/support in general and future generations.
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amother
OP


 

Post Sun, Nov 21 2021, 2:50 pm
amother [ Quince ] wrote:
People are not getting that this is found in every Kollel community like ramat eshkol and Lakewood.
There’s no escaping it. Even if most of the Kollel yungeleit are struggling, op is pointing out a question about a specific type that exists out there.
This is not a debate over where to live, or how many people are really struggling in Kollel. We believe you, your struggling, great.
Op is pointing out that there are very real people out there who are being supported by extremely wealthy parents. If you don’t know the type, you can’t really understand.
It’s out there and you can’t just move away from your Kollel because some of your friends are being supported in luxury.


Yep.
My SILs in E"Y ask me about the stereotypical RE wives and I really have no idea how to answer them. my SILs couldnt believe that its a "thing" in America to have a year off honeymoon all paid expenses

someone from my grade has a few kids and her parents just bought them a house in Inwood and her husband is in kollel. its a type here that unless youre part of you dont really get...
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amother
OP


 

Post Sun, Nov 21 2021, 2:52 pm
amother [ Gold ] wrote:
I'm not sure what you are really asking

is it how will these people's kids support there kids?
Either they will eventually go out to work and make good, have inheritances ect. and support their kids, or they wont be able to, and the kids will either do kollel they way I and most of my friends do, or they won't and will go to work.

You are struggling because all of "your world" is being supported and you aren't.
Mourn that. Cry about how you wish that was your reality, how hard it is to do it on your own. How resentful you are that you cant have what everyone else has.

Don't knock them. The majority of the people in SM and RE ARE working really hard and give up a LOT of the american comforts EVEN WHEN THE ARE SUPPORTED. And being far away from family is a HUGE sacrifice (I don't have it cause bh my parents live in Israel). And the really rich ones are sacrificing - otherwise you would see all the rich kids learning forever and that's not the reality.

And you are young. Before you put down real roots in this community (buy a house etc.) with standards beyond your means explore other options and communities out there. Otherwise you will put your kids thru the same torture your in now.


What do you mean by American comforts?
Out of 3 of my friends there, none of them work, they go to igloo park during the day, reconnect shiurs in the afternoons and have lunch with their hubbies when they come home from yeshiva. I dont see that as a sacrifice but this thread is opening my eyes a bit...
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amother
Dustypink


 

Post Sun, Nov 21 2021, 2:53 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Thank you everyone for your thoughts.
Putting my friend aside, most of my close friends went to sanhedria murchevet for the year, we were the intowners that moved to flatbush LOL
how will this system last our children's generation?


People have been asking this question for 40 years now. It’s lasting.

I used to think like you, and say things like I would never support my children in kollel, everyone has to learn how to go to work, etc etc. I have a child that will need to be supported for the rest of his life, and now I wish it could at least be doing something like learning Torah.

Just keep your nose to the grindstone and ask yourself what am I doing to be better, instead of what could everyone else do to be better.

Even in people who are blessed, you can learn a good middah from everyone.
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amother
OP


 

Post Sun, Nov 21 2021, 2:55 pm
amother [ Dustypink ] wrote:
People have been asking this question for 40 years now. It’s lasting.

I used to think like you, and say things like I would never support my children in kollel, everyone has to learn how to go to work, etc etc. I have a child that will need to be supported for the rest of his life, and now I wish it could at least be doing something like learning Torah.

Just keep your nose to the grindstone and ask yourself what am I doing to be better, instead of what could everyone else do to be better.

Even in people who are blessed, you can learn a good middah from everyone.


Well said, thank you!
I wonder how we'll think in 20 years from now... our baby is only 6 months :-)
We struggled a lot in the beg, friends gave us maaser money for food. its hard for me to think about my daughters going through that, I want them to have the type of situation I was describing earlier, but at the same time there are going to be issues when/if their husbands need to go to work and they dont have the vocational training to do so


im just a in a thinking kind of mood today! lol
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amother
Burlywood


 

Post Sun, Nov 21 2021, 3:39 pm
I only read the first few posts
it's mesiras nefesh to live on someone else's money. especially a parents. I know...
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amother
Rainbow


 

Post Sun, Nov 21 2021, 4:11 pm
Maybe I'm not "getting" what circles you're in, because yes, I was fortunate to be financially supported for a few years and live in Sanhedria Murchevet, the neighborhood you mentioned first.

Most of the young American couples in SM live in
A)tiny apartments, or
B) 5th-floor-no-elevator apartments, or
C) run-down, tiles-falling-off-bathroom wall apartments... Or
D) apartments that are all of the above.

So yes, it is mesirus nefesh to live in a tiny/hovel/tiny hovel like most do.

A tiny tiny tiny minority (5% or less) of the young chutznik couples in SM live in new, pretty, big apartments.

SM, of all the chutznik Yerushalayim neighborhoods is probably the most poshut of them all. So I doubt your wealthy friends are living it up. it's not socially acceptable there.

If your friend keeps rubbing this in your face, she has some type of issue.
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amother
Acacia


 

Post Sun, Nov 21 2021, 4:18 pm
allthingsblue wrote:
No one said it’s more difficult. Your situation is mesiras nefesh too! It’s hard to afford frum life these days.

Agreed ..in fact, a husband in kollel has a more flexible schedule making life easier in some ways...the difference is that you are sacrificing for a frum life (more expensive rent in frum area, frum tuitions, kosher food, etc.).
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amother
Rainbow


 

Post Sun, Nov 21 2021, 4:21 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
What do you mean by American comforts?
Out of 3 of my friends there, none of them work, they go to igloo park during the day, reconnect shiurs in the afternoons and have lunch with their hubbies when they come home from yeshiva. I dont see that as a sacrifice but this thread is opening my eyes a bit...


1) may in EY work, but not all, depends on level of support
2) yes, going to watch your kids in park is not an American comfort. If you don't work out you babysit or you finish work at3, you can go to the park (gan igloo is pretty far from SM when you live there in real life... More like RE)
3) reconnect shiurs, don't know what you refer to. SM has occasional shiurim at night
4) lunch with their hubbies... Do you mean pasta every day with cheese shreddedd by hand because it's cheaper that way than buying shredded?

I don't know.

I guess you would have been jealous of my lifestyle in EY. Sad
Yes, I was supported and didn't has be to work.
We also lived extremely frugally. I would walk miles to pay my property tax (rental), to go to doctor appointments, to pay bills. I rarely took taxis (average twice a year) and until I had a few kids and needed to be quicker, rarely took buses.
Bein hazmanim was spent walking to kosel, eating ice cream from makolet in arzei park.

Maybe your friends are the norm in other American neighborhoods, but definitely not for S M

Somehow I feel like I have to defend the shechunah!

I think you and your friend overshare your daily schedules
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amother
Bluebell


 

Post Sun, Nov 21 2021, 4:41 pm
I believe the only mesirus nefesh that one can really measure is one's own. It's easy to look at people's lives and speculate but we never really know the full story which means we'll never know the full scope of the sacrifices that people make. The best thing to do is remind yourself that Hashem gave you the tools for the best life meant for you. You are supposed to make the sacrifices that apply in your situation and try not to think about what others may or may not be having mesirus nefesh for.
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amother
Seablue


 

Post Sun, Nov 21 2021, 4:46 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I wanted to put this in interesting discussions but that forum doesnt allow for anonymous posting.

I'm 24, married 2 years with a small baby. My friend is 25, with 3 babies and married 5 years. Her husband is still in learning. She married one of the wealthiest guys from our community. She was telling me that her husband's grandfather bought them a two family house. They live in one apartment, rent free, and the other apartment they (my friend) rents out to another couple and they get to keep the rent. She works as a secretary 9-3. Her babies go to a legal daycare which she gets vouchers for so she pays 450$ a month for all 3

Our other friend was telling me how this is true mesiras nefesh for torah because her husband has the option to go and join his family business (real estate), but instead he chooses to sit and learn.

I didn't say anything because I dont really share my thoughts outloud when I know it will upset someone, but I was discussing it with my husband after. And I really dont think its mesiras nefesh at all. If someone is fully supported, has minimal expenses (groceries, phone bill), its not really living a kollel lifestyle or sacrificing for torah.

Is my thought process flawed? Am I just jealous that my husband isnt in yeshiva atm?

I wanted to discuss this, respectfully, and see what other wiser women have to say.


It is not mesiras nefesh. Nothing to discuss honestly
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amother
Tuberose


 

Post Sun, Nov 21 2021, 5:32 pm
I was one of those couples you are describing. Went to israel for an all expense paid 'honeymoon ' and bh did not have to think about money. Im not going to get into whether or not that is mesiras nefesh but just to answer your other question. Most of these couples eventually go out to work so its not a problem for the next generation. There are very few that stay in learning like that forever and those are the ones that are wealthy beyond belief. The regular wealthy ones go to work and if they are successful they can support their children the same way they were supported.
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