Is it mesiras nefesh if one is fully supported?

amother

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 11:17 pm

amother [ Rainbow ] wrote:

1) may in EY work, but not all, depends on level of support
2) yes, going to watch your kids in park is not an American comfort. If you don't work out you babysit or you finish work at3, you can go to the park (gan igloo is pretty far from SM when you live there in real life... More like RE)
3) reconnect shiurs, don't know what you refer to. SM has occasional shiurim at night
4) lunch with their hubbies... Do you mean pasta every day with cheese shreddedd by hand because it's cheaper that way than buying shredded?

I don't know.

I guess you would have been jealous of my lifestyle in EY. Sad

Yes, I was supported and didn't has be to work.
We also lived extremely frugally. I would walk miles to pay my property tax (rental), to go to doctor appointments, to pay bills. I rarely took taxis (average twice a year) and until I had a few kids and needed to be quicker, rarely took buses.
Bein hazmanim was spent walking to kosel, eating ice cream from makolet in arzei park.

Maybe your friends are the norm in other American neighborhoods, but definitely not for S M

Somehow I feel like I have to defend the shechunah!

I think you and your friend overshare your daily schedules

Thanks for writing in.
I have friends in SM and RE. I wouldnt consider watching kids in the park not an american comfort though.
reconnect is a program of shiurim. dina schoonmaker and rabbi cohen give weekly shalom bayis and parsha shiurs. I went once in the summer it was so nice

could be this was your experience, but my 2 friends in RE dont live off bread and butter. theyre out to eat once a week and have meat 3x a week. its a diff. lifestyle. we grew up in the five towns and im talking specifically about this sub category of couples in RE/SM

amother

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 11:18 pm

amother [ Tuberose ] wrote:

I was one of those couples you are describing. Went to israel for an all expense paid 'honeymoon ' and bh did not have to think about money. Im not going to get into whether or not that is mesiras nefesh but just to answer your other question. Most of these couples eventually go out to work so its not a problem for the next generation. There are very few that stay in learning like that forever and those are the ones that are wealthy beyond belief. The regular wealthy ones go to work and if they are successful they can support their children the same way they were supported.

hm ok makes sense. iyh hope to be able to afford that for my daughters one day!

amother

Quince

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 11:33 pm

amother [ Rainbow ] wrote:

Maybe I'm not "getting" what circles you're in, because yes, I was fortunate to be financially supported for a few years and live in Sanhedria Murchevet, the neighborhood you mentioned first.

Most of the young American couples in SM live in
A)tiny apartments, or
B) 5th-floor-no-elevator apartments, or
C) run-down, tiles-falling-off-bathroom wall apartments... Or
D) apartments that are all of the above.

So yes, it is mesirus nefesh to live in a tiny/hovel/tiny hovel like most do.

A tiny tiny tiny minority (5% or less) of the young chutznik couples in SM live in new, pretty, big apartments.

SM, of all the chutznik Yerushalayim neighborhoods is probably the most poshut of them all. So I doubt your wealthy friends are living it up. it's not socially acceptable there.

If your friend keeps rubbing this in your face, she has some type of issue.

Your right. Your not getting what she’s talking about, quite clearly.
She’s talking about the arzei or re couples who are living in luxury. You obviously don’t run in those circles, so you can’t relate.
I’m not sure why this keeps circling back to posters showing off how poor they are.
That’s not who op is talking about.
Also, if your asking about the next generation, you don’t get it either. In my community, and the other wealthy ones like mine,that’s not a worry. There’s more then enough and the businesses keep growing.
I’m not talking about doctors and lawyers. Those are not considered wealthy in a really affluent community.

amother

Ghostwhite

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 11:37 pm

amother [ Quince ] wrote:

What’s your problem? She’s just pointing out a question. If you don’t like the topic then stay out of it, don’t knock the op.
You are obviously clueless. I live in this world. They are no worse off them their siblings who work. The support is the same. It’s an age thing, as you get older your status and house goes up. No difference if your in Kollel or family business. Your stipend and trust fund is the same.
If you have no idea about this lifestyle then comment on one that you know about. Please don’t confuse people with observations that make no sense

sorry but I'm not knocking the OP (seems like you're knocking me- asking me what my problem is and calling me clueless, but that's fine)
I currently live in the tri state area. I lived in Sanhedria Murchevet for a bunch of years.
my husband was in Kollel.
the point I'm trying to make, not knocking anyone, is that it isn't doing us any good to ruminate and focus on if they do or don't have it harder than their working siblings and if it is or isn't mesirus nefesh.
it's not healthy or good for us.
personally, I know when I compare myself to a friend who lives in a huge four story (brand new, custom) home, has an incredible job, an adoring husband who is in Kollel, and is the most ideal, creative, present mother ever (oh and she also has more kids than me and we're the same age)....no, it doesn't help me. how can it? all of a sudden, my own accomplishments and things I bring to the table seem insignificant. but Hashem gave me my husband (not in Kollel!) and my kids and that's what I need to focus on.

imaima

Mon, Nov 22 2021, 4:50 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I wanted to put this in interesting discussions but that forum doesnt allow for anonymous posting.

I'm 24, married 2 years with a small baby. My friend is 25, with 3 babies and married 5 years. Her husband is still in learning. She married one of the wealthiest guys from our community. She was telling me that her husband's grandfather bought them a two family house. They live in one apartment, rent free, and the other apartment they (my friend) rents out to another couple and they get to keep the rent. She works as a secretary 9-3. Her babies go to a legal daycare which she gets vouchers for so she pays 450$ a month for all 3

Our other friend was telling me how this is true mesiras nefesh for torah because her husband has the option to go and join his family business (real estate), but instead he chooses to sit and learn.

I didn't say anything because I dont really share my thoughts outloud when I know it will upset someone, but I was discussing it with my husband after. And I really dont think its mesiras nefesh at all. If someone is fully supported, has minimal expenses (groceries, phone bill), its not really living a kollel lifestyle or sacrificing for torah.

Is my thought process flawed? Am I just jealous that my husband isnt in yeshiva atm?

I wanted to discuss this, respectfully, and see what other wiser women have to say.

I think it is, for them.
Her husband does learn Torah instead of working, either way you twist it.
They could have done different choices but they made this one.

amother

Stone

Mon, Nov 22 2021, 4:53 am

amother [ Quince ] wrote:

Lol, I live here in these areas. Tbh just cos someone is living in Arzei, it doesn’t mean much! There are far better/nicer places. Arzei isn’t the nicest place to live. If you’ve been around recently, you’ll see the luxurious buildings around. Arzei isn’t one of them.
The way of living in ey is that you’re giving up a lifestyle in chul. So there will be plenty that Arzei couples aren’t getting!
Why are ppl so worried about what others do/don’t have? I’m seriously confused!

LovesHashem

Mon, Nov 22 2021, 5:11 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Thank you everyone for your thoughts.
Putting my friend aside, most of my close friends went to sanhedria murchevet for the year, we were the intowners that moved to flatbush LOL

how will this system last our children's generation?

Not everyone does this system even now. Most people I know don't live out of their means for society. But I know many do.

I think it will end when people will stop feeling pressured to take out loans and drive themselves into debt for society.

Whether it's a bar mitzvah, seminary, weddings, kollel - why on earth are people spending outside of their means?

LovesHashem

Mon, Nov 22 2021, 5:17 am

amother [ Gold ] wrote:

you do realize that once you start the comparing game it never ends

I don't get financial support but my parents live here in israel and give me tons of physical and emotional support. My neighbor gets full support but lives far away and has emotionally abusive and controlling parents who use the money to meddle in her life. Who is being more moser nefesh?
What about the friend with full support but deals with intense depression alone far away from a supportive loving family in the states? What about the girl who grew up in the lap of luxury being given partial minimal support from her uber wealthy parents and now needs to count every shekel and live a lifestyle unimaginable a few years earlier - who is being more moser nefesh?

Hashem compares you to you. What did you do with the package he gave you in this world. Comparing yourself to others is the quickest way to become miserable

Were not talking about who has a harder life - were talking about who is giving up more for Torah learning.

I don't think allowing yourself to be abused is something anyone should strive for and look up to. Torah is not worth you being abused.

In addition mental health struggles are difficult no matter how much finacial or emotional support you have - this has nothing to do with being moser nefesh for Torah learning.

LovesHashem

Mon, Nov 22 2021, 5:20 am

Reality wrote:

I wish posters would stop saying this is jealousy. It's not. It's resenting being around people who act like they are so holy and sacrificing when they have no idea what it means to sacrifice yourself for a higher ideal. It is resenting being looked down upon by those same people with their little digs and offhand unthinking comments.

I for one am not jealous of people who are being supported. Kol hakovod. But I have no patience to listen to their high and mighty talk about sacrificing for torah and simultaneously living an extravagant lifestyle.

Yes - it's about watching people around you complain that because their husband is in learning they can't afford a 3rd car or a luxury sheitel. When you are trying to push off the electricity company from cutting you off.

Yes these people may be sacrificing something, a more luxurious lifestyle for their Torah. In life whenever you say yes to something, you say no to someone else.

It's like asking if a SAHM is being moiser nefesh to be home with her kids and not working because they can't afford a second tesla because she's staying at home with the kids. It may be hard for her, but she isn't being moiser nefesh. She is choosing that in her opinion she values staying home with her kids more than getting a 2nd tesla. She isn't someone to glorify and say "Wow. How amazing and beautiful. Look at the sacrifices she's making in order to be there for her kids 24/7."

But they are not deeply struggling, being moser nefesh, literally giving over their life and trudging on despite hardships to learn Torah.

LovesHashem

Mon, Nov 22 2021, 5:38 am

amother [ Rainbow ] wrote:

So do many israelis.

Are they going on luxury vacations and buying everything on Totty's credit card? Do they walk into stores in Shamgar and pay 400 shekel for a dress, and pick up 3-4 without thinking twice? Do they never have to worry about food, or turning on the air conditioner, or bills? Do they go out to eat twice a week and have brunches with friends one a week?

Do they get to spend their whole days shopping, going out to eat, and spending as much money as they want?

That's not mesirus nefesh.

The people I know who live in these tiny cramped apartments, get a little support to cover bills, but the wives still need to work. Don't eat out regularly, don't get buy new clothing often, and when they do they don't spend a lot. They have to think and budget, and don't just get to swipe someone's card to do whatever they want.

Reality

Mon, Nov 22 2021, 6:29 am

amother [ Cerulean ] wrote:

Money is not the only thing determines mesiras nefesh.
Staying in learning or not is not just a matter of money.
(Coming from a father who is in kollel to this day. His view is: Hashem allocated how much money I’m going to get either way, I may as well enjoy my life and learn. He also always told me that some ppl are not cut out for learning bec it takes a unique character to be happy not out there in the world doing. Further point, bh we were definitely not penniless and I grew up on a high standard)

Maybe the family are constantly nudging to leave kollel
Maybe they are the nebach simple ones compared to the family-that is hard, even if relative
Maybe they don’t have as much money as you think

Lots of maybes bec you just don’t know

Personally my husband comes from a well off family and had the full option to be supported in learning for life, in a nice bechovod way. He chose not to after 4 years bec it’s not so easy to be a man and be taking money from someone else.

Your first line really stands out to me. Please give me a modern day example of people being moser nefesh for torah that doesn't involve money? Besides for chabad shluchim and kiruv programs it's really really uncommon.

Also I find your whole post to be ironic considering you mention your father is still learning, grew up on a high standard and married a man from a well to do family. I'm really not getting your point and you are sort of proving mine....

amother

Slategray

Mon, Nov 22 2021, 8:37 am

LovesHashem wrote:

This. I think people have lost the definition of mesiras nefesh. It doesn't mean just giving up a daily pleasure or two, nor does it mean dealing with a hardship or two. It mean giving up life and soul to make sure they do xyz.

Almost none of these examples in the thread comes close to this. Sacrificing a luxury or three is not mesiras nefesh. Not joining the family business at the moment (and having it wait for you whenever you're ready) is not a sacrifice either. Sacrificing or postponing something, all the while living in a decent state, is not even remotely mesiras nefesh.

Which one of us wouldn't want to have the best of both worlds - be part of the learning world, and live in comfort? If someone has that, it's a privilege, not mesiras nefesh.

amother

Lightyellow

Mon, Nov 22 2021, 9:01 am

Reality wrote:

About forty years ago I was in shul Shabbos morning when a émigré from the Soviet Union who had spent many, many years in Siberia for teaching Torah was speaking. He said something that made a lifetime impression on me:

"People look at someone who had been in Siberia for teaching Torah as the epitome of mesirus nefesh. As someone who had been in that situation I admire the Mesirus Nefesh of someone who spends his Sundays and Shabbos afternoons learning. I admire the Mesirus Nefesh of a Yeshiva Bochur who spends his whole day learning even though he would rather be doing something else. etc. "

Not always does Mesirus Nefesh entail obvious struggles that people glorify those who overcome. Frequently it is about struggles no one other than Hashem will even know about.

amother

Fern

Mon, Nov 22 2021, 9:04 am

I think I can speak over here because I live in Ramat Eshkol in a nice apartment and I can imagine many people making these assumptions about me.

I come from a family that BH is comfortable (not crazy wealthy but bH not struggling) and my parents were extremely generous and paid for our rent for the first year. I worked hard to cover the rest of the bills, and BH was also able to put money away in savings. After that first year, we made the decision to stay here even though we are not being supported anymore. No, we do not advertise that, and I'm sure a lot of people assume we are being supported. We are on a strict budget, but between me working VERY hard, and MANY hours a day, my husband's kollel stipends and tutoring job, we make it work. I also have a big savings from when I was working and single that we have invested and the cash flow from that helps.

From our perspective, we will move when things get too tight for us, and my husband will go out to work. For now, this is our mesiras nefesh. We see how living here has impacted us spiritually and is starting off our family in a direction that we probably wouldn't have been in had we gone back to America right away.

Living a life that is completely focused on Torah here is what we chose over being very financially comfortable, being near family, missing family simchos, and more.

When I hear friends in America talking about how they are too overwhelmed to make Shabbos this week so they are going to parents - that is something that we have not been able to do since Shabbos Sheva Brachos because we are choosing to live here.

Another angle - we were not zoche to children yet, and the exorbitant amount of money that we would have spent in America for all that is available for free here is also a big deal that many don't think about.

Basically, all I am saying is that many people are here on what may seem is a "honeymoon," but in reality was a thought through decision of the pros and cons. And no - not everyone who is living a nice life here is being supported.

amother

Quince

Mon, Nov 22 2021, 9:20 am

amother [ Fern ] wrote:

No offence, but no one is talking about you here.
We know what wealthy is, we live it. You’re not wealthy and not what the op is describing.
How many times do we have to repeat this has nothing to do with people struggling to live in e”y or Kollel.
The Kollel life op is describing is really wealthy Kollel couples. I see most posters here have no idea what that means.
If you live amongst the super wealthy you would understand.
There is no budgeting. There are numerous trips home.
There is every yom Tov in parent’s apartment in rachavia or in the Waldorf or home in the states in a hotel there.
There is summer camp in the usa for your kids
There is unlimited credit card
There is full time help and a night nurse
And the son whose home in the family business gets the same.
Going to throw out something surprising now.
Going to work is mesiras nefesh. The few years in e”y is the honey moon, not real life stage. After a few years many have to go into the family business. That’s actually the mesiras nefesh, vhamaivin yavin.

amother

Fern

Mon, Nov 22 2021, 9:29 am

amother [ Quince ] wrote:

Trust me, I know exactly what you are talking about, as many of my good friends here are exactly what you are describing, and since I am in those "circles," many assume the same about me.

That's what my whole point was - no I'm not crazy wealthy, but bH I am comfortable and not being supported. Many people look at those living a kollel lifestyle here and think very black and white - that either its a honeymoon of being supported with no responsibilities, or struggling to put food on your table and never going out to eat.

All I'm trying to say is that there are many of us here who work hard, (just like our friends in America with working husbands do), are not supported, and have a nice life. There is a middle ground.

Reality

Mon, Nov 22 2021, 9:30 am

amother [ Lightyellow ] wrote:

About forty years ago I was in shul Shabbos morning when a émigré from the Soviet Union who had spent many, many years in Siberia for teaching Torah was speaking.

He said something that made a lifetime impression on me: "People look at someone who had been in Siberia for teaching Torah as the epitome of mesirus nefesh. As someone who had been in that situation I admire the Mesirus Nefesh of someone who spends his Sundays and Shabbos afternoons learning. I admire the Mesirus Nefesh of a Yeshiva Bochur who spends his whole day learning even though he would rather be doing something else. etc. "

Not always does Mesirus Nefesh entail obvious struggles that people glory those who overcome. Frequently it is about struggles no one other than Hashem will even know about.

That's for him to say not you. That speaker was trying to inspire his audience and BH it worked.

That's the crux of the issue. It is not good middos to tell other people all about your mesiras nefesh for Torah. Even this speaker who went through h-ll in Soviet Russia tried to downplay his struggles and suffering. Don't you think people who are being supported in kollel should do the same? Have some anivus and keep quiet. No need to tell people about your sacrifices. Hashem knows.

amother

Periwinkle

Mon, Nov 22 2021, 9:32 am

Nobody in the world can answer the question about mesirus nefesh when it’s not about them.
Only a person himself knows what’s mesirus nefesh for them and only the person themselves knows their full reality.

For me it isn’t mesirus nefesh yo wear a shoulder length wig. For my friend 4 inches past the shoulder is mesirus nefesh.

Nobody can know if a person who is comfortably being supported is still learning with mesirus nefesh.
For example, at the family Shabbos table if his family looks up to and admires his brothers who are successful businessmen then it’s still a mesirus nefesh. Just as an example.